UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

[George Wallace]

If anything their lack of 'professionalism' reflects back on them.....Not the CAF. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thank you for your answers, and I will quit sweating it, as it is probably becoming too much for nothing.

You're welcome.
Locked.

 

[aarronthomas30]

  So today I saw a civvie seeling what looked pretty genuine cadpat with CF tags and he was just selling them 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

  So today I saw a civvie seeling what looked pretty genuine cadpat with CF tags and he was just selling them 

Take pictures. Go to the MPs

 

[cinderblocked]

After seeing legitimate CADPAT fleece, complete with NSN tags and some previous owners last name sharpied on, I started searching to find the legality of surplus stores selling REAL CADPAT.

after reading this entire thread, and searching on my own, I have found no law applicable to surplus stores. Military law applicable to someone caught selling or destroying real cadpat uniforms, yes.

but no law stating that a store may not sell a real cadpat uniform. Anyone have a link or concise explination? thanks.

 

[ballz]

Well "possession of stolen property" is a criminal offence in Canada, so there's a start...

 

[cinderblocked]

I understand what you mean by stolen property, however possessing CADPAT doesn't meet the elements of the offense for that particular offense, as not returning your issued kit isn't punishable by indictable offense, merely an offense according to the QR&O's and the NDA.

please correct me if I'm wrong here

 

[PuckChaser]

Now you're rolling down a rabbit hole. Did you fraudulently claim something was lost to get to keep it? Was it a paperwork error, but you didn't didn't have the ethical standing to return the kit on release?

*You is the royal you, not you specifically.

 

[ballz]

It's stolen from the Crown. Members have been charged with theft under the Criminal Code for selling issued kit.

"Not returning" your kit is very different from selling it to a surplus store or on Kijiji.

 

[cinderblocked]

Exactly, the legality of selling the items gets muddied. I'm asking from a LE perspective, as I'm more than happy to go after shops selling genuine issued kit that definitely isn't surplus or bought as "surplus scrap". I've asked my superiors about it before and they just shurg and say "it's not illegal to sell it".

So I'm asking for the forums help to find the actual legal document that states selling these items is illegal. Then I'll go on seizing spree, and pass on the info to my coworkers

 

[ballz]

Well I'm not a lawyer or an LEO, but I know of a member being charged under the Criminal Code for selling issued kit. He kind of disappeared after that and I have no idea if he ever got convicted. It fits the definition easily enough.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-322.html

322. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently and without colour of right takes, or fraudulently and without colour of right converts to his use or to the use of another person, anything, whether animate or inanimate, with intent
(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;
(b) to pledge it or deposit it as security;
(c) to part with it under a condition with respect to its return that the person who parts with it may be unable to perform; or
(d) to deal with it in such a manner that it cannot be restored in the condition in which it was at the time it was taken or converted.

 

[cinderblocked]

you're 100% right, but for that I'd have to catch them selling it. I'm wondering what happens when the store already has it, and is selling it.

 

[Tibbson]

I've had a few investigations I've either done or supervised in which retailers were selling cadpat items and in all cases they were either knock off items or items they bought by the triwall, legitimately, as surplus.

 

[PuckChaser]

Does the investigation stop there, or do you then start looking at who improperly disposed of CADPAT in the triwall without shredding?

 

[BinRat55]

Well, it's kind of semantics, as the points have been made, however as an added layer if controversy our CADPAT contains actual controlled technology. The IR properties found in the material is not allowed to fall outside of the Canadian Military. We used to burn it, however environmental laws interveined saying that the chemical when burned was creating a disturbance in the "force"... which is why we now shred it. Failing all that, as previously stated, any kit I issue to your IA (Individual Account) is on loan only. You don't own it - my CO (by virtue of the crown) does. Once it leaves your trust, unless it's being returned to the crown, it's stolen.

 

[George Wallace]

Well, it's kind of semantics, as the points have been made, however as an added layer if controversy our CADPAT contains actual controlled technology.  The IR properties found in the material is not allowed to fall outside of the Canadian Military.

That now brings up CTAT.  Under CTAT, there are legal ramifications as to whom can own and use the "Controlled Technology".  It would be a criminal offence for someone other than the Canadian military, some authorized LEO's, or a very few authorized Contractors to use it.

We used to burn it, however environmental laws interveined saying that the chemical when burned was creating a disturbance in the "force"... which is why we now shred it. Failing all that, as previously stated, any kit I issue to your IA (Individual Account) is on loan only. You don't own it - my CO (by virtue of the crown) does. Once it leaves your trust, unless it's being returned to the crown, it's stolen.

What Charges could be laid would require delving deeply into all the Controlled Technology documents and references to International Agreements.  DAOD 3003-0, Controlled Goods may be a place to start.

You may also find info at:

Canada's Implementation of the new International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) Dual National Rule
where it is quoted:

Procedures to Ensure Compliance
Security assess and certify DOs.
Conduct compliance inspections of registered companies (including security plans, record keeping, training programs, security breach reports).
Invoke suspension and revocation, and prosecution procedures as required (including seizure and detention of controlled goods).
Educate industry and company DOs, on the legal and regulatory requirements.
Pass on high risk security assessments to security and intelligence (S&I) partners for further analysis.
Illegal possession, examination or transfer of controlled goods is an offence under Canada's DPA.
Maximum penalty is $2,000,000 per day and/or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.

 

[BinRat55]

I've actually heard treason is there, although I have never looked for myself...

 

[George Wallace]

I've actually heard treason is there, although I have never looked for myself...

The stealing/selling/unauthorized access of Controlled Technology could through legal manipulation come out to be "treason" or "espionage" if one were really playing on technicalities, I suppose.  That would be an interpretation of the Criminal Code that covers such matters, and perhaps require some updating to the Code to keep up with the times.

 

[BinRat55]

Yeah - the situation would dictate for sure. Like if needed a quick C-note, and I found a shop that would buy it then i'm selling property that's not mine and the shop is now in posession of stolen property. If I wanted to make a whole lot more and found a buyer outside this country and knowingly sold it knowing they bought it to attempt idedntification of controlled technology - that's a different beast altogether!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As usual, a reference to the source always helps. Here are the definitions of High Treason and Treason in the Canadian Criminal Code, and you will see that, depending on the facts, there are some cause where putting controlled goods in the wrong and could amount to Treason:

OFFENCES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER

Treason and other Offences against the Queen’s Authority and Person

High treason

46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason

(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.
Marginal note:Canadian citizen

(3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,
(a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or
(b) commits treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (2).
Marginal note:Overt act

(4) Where it is treason to conspire with any person, the act of conspiring is an overt act of treason.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 46; 1974-75-76, c. 105, s. 2.