UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

[The Gues-|-]

Sale of Canadian military uniforms on internet sparks investigation
Last Updated Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:30:01 EST
CBC News

The military is investigating how clothing and equipment that's issued only to Canadian soldiers is ending up for sale on the internet.

The sale is also raising concerns about the security of Canadian troops.

"We'll be looking at all aspects right through and including the supply chain."

John Thompson, president of the MacKenzie Institute in Toronto, said one of the big worries is that someone could pick up a uniform and send it to Afghanistan.

"Someone might represent themselves as a Canadian soldier, being in perfect uniform and gear, until they get close enough to set off a suicide bomb," he said.

Each piece of the uniform is distinct, with its own serial number. And it's not supposed to be worn by anyone other than a member of the Canadian Armed Forces.

It's illegal for civilians to own or wear the camouflage CADPAT clothing, and it's illegal for soldiers to sell it.

But a search on the web turns up all the makings of a military uniform: gloves, combat helmets, specialized sniper jackets, and a harness meant for the country's elite commandos, the JTF2. That harness sold online last week for $1,200 US – before it was even issued to the soldiers.

For just a few hundred dollars it's possible to buy a complete CADPAT uniform with name badge and rank insignia, making the person wearing it indistinguishable from a real Canadian soldier.

CBC News asked the Armed Forces about the illegal sale of gear, and it sparked an immediate investigation by military police.

"We'll be looking at all aspects right through and including the supply chain," said Capt. Mark Giles, with the military's National Investigation Service.

The military investigators believe many of the items sold on online may have been stolen by soldiers or civilians working in the supply chain. The big worry, however, is who is buying the uniforms and why.

"It could mean that a potential attack is coming with insurgents who are disguising themselves as Canadian soldiers," said Thompson.

The military said the investigation will concentrate in Canada. If necessary, it will look beyond the borders to find out who is stealing, selling and buying the uniforms and gear.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/14/uniforms_internet060314.html


(Edited by Moderator to place reference source at start of article and add quote box.)

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

This isn't a new problem.  There were a certain few from OP Athena Roto's who have posted their brassards, and OP Athena field books on e-bay for sale. 

I think it's a case of some of the crew not thinking of what could ultimately happen or that there are certain "bad" people who are interested in obtaining these items to use them against us. 

That said, the army surplus store market is booming and I think it's impossible to control.  I was surprised to read in your post that the wearing of CADPAT clothing by civilians is illegal?  I don't see how that could ever be enforced, or what law it would be contravening. 

Personally, I hate to see anyone wearing any part of our uniform who hasn't 'earned' the right.  Legally, I don't think we can change the civi's, but we certainly can educate our members about the potential harm and damage that can be caused by their selling kit.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Devlin]

This article does not make a lot of sense in that companies like Drop Zone Tactical and Candian Peacekeeper amongst others do a good business in the production of CADPAT clothing that is fairly similiar too actual uniforms. Not exact matches but between companies like this and about 20 minutes in a surplus store or ebay and presto one look alike CF troop.

No it would not stand up to close inspection and I would hope that being a small force would allow us to readily spot an outsider.

I would also hope that companies like those mentioned above would exercise some due dillegence and not ship items to questionable addresses, yes I know not entirely fool proof either.

 

[orange.paint]

I personally don't think its a big deal.When I was like 10 I had full American combats (ssgt cherra nametag) and all the bells and whistles which I bought at a army navy store because it was army and so freaking cool.I don't think these people who buy this stuff for the most part have malicious intents.A civilian could easily go into wheelers here in oromocto and full kit himself out head to top in cadpat.It may vary a little in design (i.e buttons) but at a distance it could be mistaken.

With all this talk of this today it reminds me of a tour of duty episode where charlie dresses up in American gear walking into their camp with a prisoner.....(yes I'm a loser I like the show for the sheer stupidity).

Look how easy marpad and old American combats are to get here in Canada and I haven't heard any stories of Iraqi's using it for attacks.

Anyone agree?

 

[The_Falcon]

This isn't a new problem.  There were a certain few from OP Athena Roto's who have posted their brassards, and OP Athena field books on e-bay for sale. 

I think it's a case of some of the crew not thinking of what could ultimately happen or that there are certain "bad" people who are interested in obtaining these items to use them against us. 

That said, the army surplus store market is booming and I think it's impossible to control.  I was surprised to read in your post that the wearing of CADPAT clothing by civilians is illegal?  I don't see how that could ever be enforced, or what law it would be contravening. 

Personally, I hate to see anyone wearing any part of our uniform who hasn't 'earned' the right.  Legally, I don't think we can change the civi's, but we certainly can educate our members about the potential harm and damage that can be caused by their selling kit.

Just my 2 cents.

The comment about the illegality was actually from the CBC article.  In any case, it is illegal because under various laws/regulation regarding the manufacture and production of the CADPAT uniforms, all the uniforms are required to be shredded prior to disposal.  If the uniforms (and other kit) in question are being sold intact on ebay, then either the items were stolen outright (from another soldier, or from a supply warehouse etc.), which leads to possesion of stolen property and/or theft charges.  Or the items were reported as "missing/lost" to the local base supply when in fact they weren't which can leads to property obtain by fraudulent means/proceeds of crime etc.  There are other threads that have the specific details and what not.  Search under CADPAT

Edit after I read above two posts. What the article was trying to get at was the unauthorized sale of of ACTUAL ISSUED kit, (not the knock off stuff) was a growing problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Definitely something to be aware of the possibility of occuring, but there's nothing preventing insurgent/Taliban/Al Qaeda forces from acquiring US, British, or any multitude of uniforms of allied nations (whose uniforms are readily available through surplus stores, ebay, internet, etc.) serving beside the Canadians in Afghanistan and carrying out an attack as described.  
It's been done by insurgent forces in Iraq during fighting in Fallujah and Najaf and achieved limited/little success (The insurgents didn't use the uniforms for suicide bombings, but rather in the pitched street battles to try and infiltrate into American lines).

I'd be more worried about an attack of multiple VBIEDs used to breach and attack a facility, ie. Palestine Hotel in Baghdad than a single footborne suicide bomber disguising himself as a Canadian in cadpat clothing and equipment.  Also, a lone soldier attempting to enter a compound or infiltrate a body of troops would draw attention unto himself, as it's very unlikely that a single troop would be 'outside the wire'.  Then when he's challenged/questioned by the gate guard, unless he spoke perfect english or french (depending on the working language of the unit deployed) it'd become very quickly apparent, something was fishy and the situation would be handled accordingly.  Proper force protection requires some sort of id check/challenge procedure for persons entering friendly lines, no matter how they're dressed or what sort of vehicle they're in.
Outside of the wire suicide bombers have got ample opportunity to get into lethal blast range of patrols without having to 'Cadpat' themselves up.
If there were a legitimate fear of being infiltrated by insurgents/terrorists dressed in cadpat uniforms and equipment, I'd be more worried about the Pakistani knock-off cadpat stuff done by Parklands being used for an infiltration attack, seeing as how the stuff is readily available in Al Qaeda's own backyard.

 

[Haggis]

Selling uniforms may be illegal but wearing them definitely is:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/181296.html#rid-181327

From the Criminal Code:

"419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,

(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or

(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction."

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

Just as a thought to the interpretation of the CC.  When "uniform" is refered to, it is the complete entity not just a piece of clothing.  It's not as though we could arrest individuals who had army backpacks on, or the numerous number of people who wear our combat shirts and jackets. 

The mens rea required would be to wear the uniform as to represent ones self as a member of the CF.

 

[Haggis]

Just as a thought to the interpretation of the CC.  When "uniform" is refered to, it is the complete entity not just a piece of clothing.  It's not as though we could arrest individuals who had army backpacks on, or the numerous number of people who wear our combat shirts and jackets. 

The mens rea required would be to wear the uniform as to represent ones self as a member of the CF.

And that charge was laid and succesfully prosecuted during the Ice Storm.

 

[beenthere]

There's a waggon load of the stuff listed on the bay. I don't know how the supply system works but there is obviously either a leak in the system or between the contractors and the system.
As for the security impact of uniforms for sale to the wrong people I would suggest that it would certainly provide them with easy access to costumes and should be stopped.
It should be quite easy to identify the people offering them for sale. Just go to ebay and enter cadpat in the search block if you want to check on who's selling the goods.

 

[Armymedic]

Some of the items on sale I question:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Canadian-Army-Cadpat-Pants-Genuine-Issue-Size-6738_W0QQitemZ6612231895QQcategoryZ104023QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Canadian-Army-Cadpat-Shirt-Genuine-Issue-Size-7040_W0QQitemZ6612258920QQcategoryZ104023QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Canadian-Tactical-Vest-Cadpat-LARGE_W0QQitemZ6613175701QQcategoryZ36071QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Also one of the Ebay stores sells a CADPAT Goretex Biv bag. I have never ever seen one of those in the field yet.

To sell these items, it would mean either someone is stealing them, or not turning them in when their employment ends.

 

[George Wallace]

It really is old news.  We were talking about this just a couple of weeks ago in the Small Pack Issue:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35240/post-346752.html#msg346752

I am sure someone took the advice there and notified the proper authorities, so CBC's claim to fame is false bravado.

Just go up to the Search Box and type in Ebay and you will find that we have over 20 pages of Topics dealing with the sale of CF kit on their site.

 

[GO!!!]

I find it especially comforting that the Military Police and NIS were "unaware" of this problem before the CBC brought it up.

I did'nt even think it was worth reporting, it seemed so obvious, I thought that they would already be on top of it.

I guess I was mistaken...

 

[The_Falcon]

Also one of the Ebay stores sells a CADPAT Goretex Biv bag. I have never ever seen one of those in the field yet.

I have seen quite a few in the field.  I have one.

To sell these items, it would mean either someone is stealing them, or not turning them in when their employment ends.

Either way it consititutes theft, as the owner of the kit is ultimately the crown.

322. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently and without colour of right takes, or fraudulently and without colour of right converts to his use or to the use of another person, anything, whether animate or inanimate, with intent

(a) to deprive, temporarily or absolutely, the owner of it, or a person who has a special property or interest in it, of the thing or of his property or interest in it;

this offence would probably also apply

337. Every one who, being or having been employed in the service of Her Majesty in right of Canada or a province, or in the service of a municipality, and entrusted by virtue of that employment with the receipt, custody, management or control of anything, refuses or fails to deliver it to a person who is authorized to demand it and does demand it is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 297.

and very likely this one as well

354. (1) Every one commits an offence who has in his possession any property or thing or any proceeds of any property or thing knowing that all or part of the property or thing or of the proceeds was obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from

(a) the commission in Canada of an offence punishable by indictment; or

(b) an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence punishable by indictment.

 

[The_Falcon]

I find it especially comforting that the Military Police and NIS were "unaware" of this problem before the CBC brought it up.

I did'nt even think it was worth reporting, it seemed so obvious, I thought that they would already be on top of it.

I guess I was mistaken...

I doubt they were unaware.  I seem to recall a few stories of pending investigations of few years back (2-3) when these items first started showing up on ebay.  I have my own ideas of why they said they were unaware, but I will let you come up with your own theories of why they would say it.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Selling uniforms may be illegal but wearing them definitely is:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/181296.html#rid-181327

From the Criminal Code:

"419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,

(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or

(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction."

Ironically enough, it is legal for our enemies to wear them - the Geneva Convention (IIRC) states that wearing enemy uniforms in time of war is a legitimate ruse de guerre as long as the uniforms are taken off before contact is made with the enemy.  Don't know how that applies if you are not actually in a war (ie are a terrorist), though.  The Brandenburg Commandos used enemy uniforms all the time in the Second World War.

Therefore, I'd say its even more important that our military clothing doesn't just end up in anybody's hands.

 

[Wookilar]

There was a big fight over the sale of CADPAT in Edmonton about two years ago. A retired member has a surplus store, had the contract for disposal of clothing. Got lots of CADPAT, legally, bought and paid for from whoever it is on base that does disposal. All legal and above board. About 6 months after the latest delivery (about this time last year), the hammer dropped. All CADPAT was to be returned, it was illegal to sell it, going to charge him with a bunch of crap, yadda yadda. He did end up giving it all back and at first he wasn't going to be reimbursed for what he paid for the uniforms. I left when it was still between the lawyers, so I don't know what's going on now.
The Edmonton Journal may still have it in their archives. Smiling Scotty was on the front page with a couple tri-walls of CADPAT. Good free advertising for him, but he lost a butt load of potential sales.

Edit: Just checked the website, still has CADPAT listed for sale. I don't want to flog anybody's wares here, but if you want the site, PM me and I'll send you the link so you can see for yourself.

 

[army outfitters]

This dealer did not return the goods as he bought them fair and square via crown assets. Since then any surplus he gets of any type always ends up being chipped or shredded no matter what it is. I guess they don't like him any more but yes he still has stuff for sale

 

[Jarnhamar]

I doubt they were unaware.  I seem to recall a few stories of pending investigations of few years back (2-3) when these items first started showing up on ebay.  I have my own ideas of why they said they were unaware, but I will let you come up with your own theories of why they would say it.

I agree 100%

Weren't aware? Bullshit.
Not being aware of this makes them sound even dumber than being aware but not being able to catch the crooks.
MPs HAVE investigated errant tacvests when they first came out and found their way on EBAY.

 

[big_castor]

You are looking at an used but in perfect condition Canadian Tactical Vest. It come with 2 extra C9 pouch where you can put a barrel or other stuff.

This tactical vest had only one owner who has released after 6 month

I guess the owner somehow forgot to return the vest when he released....