Ukraine - Superthread

[daftandbarmy]

Why is the US constantly adding little by little more advanced shells/missiles to the M777's and HIMARS? I understand that they are reluctant to give them 'long range' weapons (the definition of 'long range' it open for interpretation) but why not give them everything under range X that can be fired by the M777's and HIMARS? There is little doubt that this approach would undoubtedly save Ukrainian lives, kill/wound more Russians, possibly reduce the equipment attrition suffered by the Ukrainians and add to the attrition suffered by the Russians, strengthen Ukrainian morale/resolve and accordingly weakened Russian morale/resolve.

It is simply a political question of resolve by the US?

I'm going with 'proportionality in the use of force' thing.

e.g., match 'Russians firing missiles into civilian apartment buildings' with incremental increases in the range and lethality of weapon systems given to the UKR.

 

[MilEME09]

One thing that confuses me about this. If a 42 tonne 105mm armed vehicle with early 80's tech and armour can be considered and successfully employed as a tank in a peer war, why must a 38 tonne 105mm armed vehicle with 2020 tech and armour be obscurely named and adamantly exclaimed as not a tank and not suitable for being used a tank?

Defined role, armour, and it's gun if you are referring the AMX10RC. Very light armour, designed as a recce vehicle, and while the gun is a 105mm, it uses non standard ammo only manufactured by France

 

[IKnowNothing]

Defined role, armour, and it's gun if you are referring the AMX10RC. Very light armour, designed as a recce vehicle, and while the gun is a 105mm, it uses non standard ammo only manufactured by France

Actually referring to the Griffin II/ MPF

 

[Skysix]

Another viewpoint on the war from India. Always good idea not to silo your information feed

Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy - Page 72 - Bharat Rakshak

 

[Skysix]

I'm going with 'proportionality in the use of force' thing.

e.g., under match 'Russians firing missiles into civilian apartment buildings' with incremental increases in the range and lethality of weapon systems given to the UKR.

FTFY

(technically, trivially is still a form of proportionality)

 

[Czech_pivo]

Another viewpoint on the war from India. Always good idea not to silo your information feed

Russian-Ukrainian War: Combat Tactics & Strategy - Page 72 - Bharat Rakshak

View attachment 76171

It is a good approach to broaden your media sources.
For certain though, sites like this are going to be chalk a block full of Russian sympathizers due to the nature of the 'non-aligned' approach that India officially takes. The Russians will do ALL that they can to at a min. keep the Indian viewpoint as being neutral if not sympathetic to Russia.

 

[RangerRay]

The whole point of Russian disinformation is not to change minds to their point of view, but to flood the zone with bullshit to the point that people throw up their hands and say “I don’t know what the truth is. Fuck it.”

 

[Kirkhill]

One thing that confuses me about this. If a 42 tonne 105mm armed vehicle with early 80's tech and armour can be considered and successfully employed as a tank in a peer war, why must a 38 tonne 105mm armed vehicle with 2020 tech and armour be obscurely named and adamantly exclaimed as not a tank and not suitable for being used a tank?

Or even why is it that 1980s tanks are battling it out in Ukraine with the biggest difference being the adjustment in Tactics, Training and Procedure?

Tanks that can't charge into the face of the enemy don't. They are held to the rear as mobile reserves, as indirect fire support, as anti-tank troops and as infantry support vehicles.

So - when we get new kit why do we ditch old kit?
And - when we accept new standards with new compromises (and I am specifically thinking about weight and deployability) why do we ditch the old standards?

What is the difference between a 40 tonne 105mm Leo 1A5, in good condition with Lexan or Mexas armour and 60 onboard rounds, a 38 ton 105mm GDLS MPF or even a 40 tonne 120mm CV90120 with the latest armour and optronics.

Army leaders plan on buying 504 vehicles meant to be in the service’s inventory for at least 30 years. Most of the procurement should be finished by 2035.

New Army light tank under construction

The Mobile Protected Firepower is aimed to fill the shooting gaps to cover light infantry formations.

www.defensenews.com

“The Army particularly needs the as-yet nonexistent Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) vehicle to support infantry brigade combat teams–a lightweight vehicle that can be airlifted into battle and maneuver, dispersed if necessary, in close-quarters urban terrain, but with lethal long-range firepower to take out enemy armored vehicles,” read a March 2017 article in an Army magazine. “The idea is to defeat enemy positions and destroy their light armored vehicles pre-emptively to provide U.S. forces with greater freedom of movement. MPF is now the Army’s highest mid-term priority in combat vehicle modernization.”

In every such request, there is a vision of the kind of war the Army expects to fight. For Mobile Protected Firepower vehicles, this war is in cities and it is against an enemy with armor beyond heavy tanks. Enemy vehicles, from technicals to dedicated armor, can carry heavy guns into urban environments, and the Army wants a way to destroy those vehicles directly, without the collateral damage of an artillery barrage. Most notably, this vision includes the ability to be airdropped alongside infantry, a requirement no longer part of the program.

At a March 2017 hearing before Congress, shortly after the announcement of MPF, Lieutenant General John Murray, deputy chief of staff of the Army, emphasized the role of the vehicle specifically for adding punch to Infantry Brigade Combat Teams (IBCT). Against a peer or near-peer nation, like China or Russia, Armored Brigade Combat Teams already have heavy tanks, and Stryker Brigade Combat Teams have many anti-tank weapons, including javelin missiles.

But, said Murray, while an MPF vehicle is not designed to go “toe-to-toe with a Soviet tank,” having the MPFs in an Infantry Brigade Combat Team means they can handle other threats, like bunkers or light armor, that they cannot deal with at present without support.

Everything to know about the Army’s new 38-ton light tank

Currently called the Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) vehicle, it will receive a new name in October. Here's why the Army wants it.

www.popsci.com

CV90120

The CV90120 has been developed to meet a specific demand - firepower comparable to an MBT, in a lighter, more mobile vehicle

www.baesystems.com

 

[Kirkhill]

One of the nice things about the CV90120, for the modern battlefield, is that it only has a crew of three, but it has two extra seats in the rear that could be used by a UAS operator and, perhaps a commander or an MFC/FOO/FAC.

Buy 300-400 CV90s for the RCAC. Leave the LAVs with the Infantry.

RCAC -
CV90120
CV9035
CV90-Mjoelnir
CV9035-AD
CV90-Brimstone
CV90-LAMs

BAE Systems' new CV90 variants add capabilities and combat efficiency for Swedish Army

BAE Systems has signed a follow-on contract with the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) for two new CV90 variants, which are being added to the Swedish CV90 RENO upgrade program.

www.baesystems.com

CV90 Armoured Combat Vehicle

Combat Vehicle 90 (CV90), also called Stridsfordon 90 (Strf 90), represents a family of armoured combat vehicles developed by BAE…

www.army-technology.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Sweden to deliver CV90 fighting vehicles to Ukraine

Sweden announced it will send CV90 infantry fighting vehicles, Archer artillery systems and NLAW anti-tank missiles to Ukraine, Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson said on Thursday. Speaking at a press conference, Prime Minister said his government had agreed on a three-part military support package...

defence-blog.com

 

[Eaglelord17]

Or even why is it that 1980s tanks are battling it out in Ukraine with the biggest difference being the adjustment in Tactics, Training and Procedure?

Tanks that can't charge into the face of the enemy don't. They are held to the rear as mobile reserves, as indirect fire support, as anti-tank troops and as infantry support vehicles.

So - when we get new kit why do we ditch old kit?
And - when we accept new standards with new compromises (and I am specifically thinking about weight and deployability) why do we ditch the old standards?

What is the difference between a 40 tonne 105mm Leo 1A5, in good condition with Lexan or Mexas armour and 60 onboard rounds, a 38 ton 105mm GDLS MPF or even a 40 tonne 120mm CV90120 with the latest armour and optronics.

I have said it before, obsolescent doesn’t mean obsolete. Its nice to always have the latest and greatest but old tech can still preform more than adequately the vast majority of the time. Certainly better than having nothing which is what we seem to run with more often than not.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I have said it before, obsolescent doesn’t mean obsolete. Its nice to always have the latest and greatest but old tech can still preform more than adequately the vast majority of the time. Certainly better than having nothing which is what we seem to run with more often than not.

True - a crossbow can kill you at 50 metres just like a Ak-74 can.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Speaking of Greece and Turkey...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620814463996952576

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It is a good approach to broaden your media sources.
For certain though, sites like this are going to be chalk a block full of Russian sympathizers due to the nature of the 'non-aligned' approach that India officially takes. The Russians will do ALL that they can to at a min. keep the Indian viewpoint as being neutral if not sympathetic to Russia.

Read through the thread and note the location of many of the posters.

 

[TacticalTea]

Why is the US constantly adding little by little more advanced shells/missiles to the M777's and HIMARS? I understand that they are reluctant to give them 'long range' weapons (the definition of 'long range' it open for interpretation) but why not give them everything under range X that can be fired by the M777's and HIMARS? There is little doubt that this approach would undoubtedly save Ukrainian lives, kill/wound more Russians, possibly reduce the equipment attrition suffered by the Ukrainians and add to the attrition suffered by the Russians, strengthen Ukrainian morale/resolve and accordingly weakened Russian morale/resolve.

It is simply a political question of resolve by the US?

A multitude of evolving factors.

Of note, Ukrainians' ability to cost-effectively learn, sustain and operate systems, their adherence to LOAC and any other restraints, the changing assessment of Russian nuclear posture, the desired effects on the ground, the speed with which a commitment can bring about substantial positive changes on the ground, etc.

And yes, I'm sure, some amount of managing American expectations at home, but by and large foreign affairs is where politicians are truly leaders and the Demos follows. Foreign policy can be exploited to affect internal politics, but populations don't generally guide action on the international scene. YMMV.

I presume you had cluster munitions in mind as far as HIMARS is concerned? I thought they had provided some form of those already? Or will that be part of the GLSDB package?

 

[Kirkhill]

More tales of conditions in the lines at Bakhmut.

And the belief that this is a long war.

«Нам нужно настрелять миллион россиян». Война не закончится в ближайшие полгода — интервью NV с Мадьяром, обороняющим Бахмут

Не надо питать иллюзий относительно того, что война закончится в течение ближайших нескольких месяцев или даже полугода, убежден Александр Матяш с позывным Мадьяр.

nv-ua.translate.goog

 

[Spencer100]

Speaking of Greece and Turkey...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1620814463996952576

Hey if your Ergodan make hay when the sun shines. Playing all sides. He's coming out a winner no matter what happens.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If Freeland is resigning in the next 2-3 weeks (as some are starting to chatter about) and she has a dream of becoming NATO Sec Gen, then she might want to rethink that.....

Bring back Boris - to lead the Nato alliance​

The West’s dithering over giving Ukraine crucial military has to stop, before Putin regains the initiative

Bring back Boris - to lead the Nato alliance

The West’s dithering over giving Ukraine crucial military has to stop, before Putin regains the initiative

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Good2Golf]

If Freeland is resigning in the next 2-3 weeks (as some are starting to chatter about) and she has a dream of becoming NATO Sec Gen, then she might want to rethink that.....

Bring back Boris - to lead the Nato alliance​

The West’s dithering over giving Ukraine crucial military has to stop, before Putin regains the initiative

Bring back Boris - to lead the Nato alliance

The West’s dithering over giving Ukraine crucial military has to stop, before Putin regains the initiative

www.telegraph.co.uk

Watch how the US reacts to this effort/campaign. Some say the US wants a non-Eurocentric female Chair, to counter the FRA-DEU block, but if Bojo answers the mail enough on that desire by Uncle Sam, then Freeland’s star may fizzle.

 

[Rifleman62]

Former UK Defence Minister states NATO troops may have to enter the battle @ 4.11