Ukraine - Superthread

[Skysix]

Out of POMCUS? THAT’s kind of a big deal, I think? That’s drawing down immediately available war stock.

Forgot to ask earlier- 25mm; is there much real armour penetration difference between APFSDS-DU vs APFSDS-T? Or does US just not use or stock the latter much because they have DU?

Short term, yes. While the more updated replacements are shipped over from CONUS. A win/win as US does not have to upgrade that equipment or ship the older units back to long term storage or Guard units

 

[Skysix]

It would be interesting to know how much work is going on at Sierra and other army depots to bring kit from long term storage to operational state.

Watch the railheads for empty flatcars, and the lines for trains at night. Likely the most accurate non humint assessment if 24/7 with a remote internet camera. Use open source sat imagrey. Monitor activity on feeder roads of workers (more or bigger shifts?) and further out commercial truck traffic on feeder highways with components or supplies from known manufacturers. Private pilot overflights or mid altitude nearby flights. Drones etc

Be assurred the opposition will be trying to do the same so if blue forces are on the ball the wireless/cell towers in areas with good views should be monitored and SIM's tracked and investigated. Movements will be timed to avoid satellites as much as possible and local LEO primed to watch for observers in nearby depot access or rail crossing areas. New NOTAMS with low altitude restrictions etc.

In short, common sense low grade sympathiser (spy) stuff.

 

[Skysix]

Is it only me that thinks there "might" have been a bunch of Ukrainian tourists on holiday in the US visiting the Museum of the plains and the Commanche Casino since mid September whose 3 month visas are about to expire (at about the same time a battery needs to be picked up in Poland?)

 

[Maxman1]

Why? 25mm is a great gun, and proven against Soviet armour. Why frig with something that works well and can be used immediately?

I wasn't suggesting modifying the ones to be donated to Ukraine. Rather, I was wondering if a 76mm armed Bradley variant would be useful.

There's another vehicle, the General Dynamics Griffon II, selected last June under the Mobile Protected Firepower program and to be introduced soon. It will be armed with a NATO 105mm tank cannon, the M35. It is best described as a light tank. I was also thinking that would make a 76mm armed Bradley pointless.

 

[GR66]

I wasn't suggesting modifying the ones to be donated to Ukraine. Rather, I was wondering if a 76mm armed Bradley variant would be useful.

There's another vehicle, the General Dynamics Griffon II, selected last June under the Mobile Protected Firepower program and to be introduced soon. It will be armed with a NATO 105mm tank cannon, the M35. It is best described as a light tank. I was also thinking that would make a 76mm armed Bradley pointless.

The highlighed part will cause heads to explode. It's a direct fire support weapon for the IBCTs. Any similarities to actual tanks, living or dead are purely coincidental as they say on TV.

 

[CBH99]

The highlighed part will cause heads to explode. It's a direct fire support weapon for the IBCTs. Any similarities to actual tanks, living or dead are purely coincidental as they say on TV.

Looks like a great piece of kit!

What was old is new again… looks like the eager cub of 2 proud Abram’s parents.

 

[MilEME09]

Video of recovery operation of a flipped tank, doesn't look like destroyed, driver clearly wasn't paying attention.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612115096997662720

 

[KevinB]

Probably a good thread split on the Griffin II as it’s drifted past Ukraine

 

[Zipperhead99]

Of course, it would depend on German approval

Poland considers the option to deliver their Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine | Defense News January 2023 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2023 | Archive News year

Polish Government is considering the request of Ukraine to have more main battle tanks with the possible sending of Leopard 2 Main Battle Tanks coming from the Polish army military inventory.

www.armyrecognition.com

Finland is ready to supply Ukraine with Leopard 2 MBTs main battle tanks | Defense News January 2023 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2023 | Archive News year

Antti Häkkänen Chairman of the Finnish Defense Committee and member of the Finnish Parliament said that Finland is ready to supply Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine.

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The highlighed part will cause heads to explode. It's a direct fire support weapon for the IBCTs. Any similarities to actual tanks, living or dead are purely coincidental as they say on TV.

When they have produced more than 50 General Dynamics Griffon II, give me a call. The US Army "light tank" programs have been the closest thing to a perpetual motion machine with no obvious output in the last 40+ years.

 

[brihard]

Yeah, I suspect the light tank thing is mostly about giving more firepower to light formations, probably with the last war in mind… I think there’s gonna be a major revisiting of force structure concepts now. A lot of ground up assessment needs to be done on what Ukraine has proven about what mobility, married to what protection, to what weapons, and to what sensors will be needed for various roles. And to assume that adversaries will be doing the same. Will light tanks still be a perceived need? Or will they be adequately protected for the employment of the type of armament they bring to the fight?

 

[Skysix]

Re: Russia's veto in the security council. A suggestion

Phase 1: change the rules so that nobody can vote on a security council motion that is directed against them specifically (including all security council members).

Phase 2: Eliminate the permanant security council seat veto as a concept since as more nations become nuclear capable the notion becomes unfair unless it is expanded for Israel, North Korea, India, Pakistan (and the former Soviet states that currently have nuclear weapons).

Phase 3: create a suspension mechanism for security council voting priviledges that removes it for a set (repeatable) period for gross violations of the UN charter until the violations have ceased.

Phase 4: acknoweledge that Russia is not the USSR and thus the direct succession is invalid. This step is moot if all the other former nuclear capable Soviet states are added to the security council. If not then all the former Soviet states that are still nuclear capable (including Russia) share the USSR seat rotationaly, changing annually.

 

[Skysix]

Will light tanks still be a perceived need?

Sure, why not? In fact needed more than heavy tanks since as cheap top attack smart fire and forget man portable AT missiles proliferate the extra armour, caliber weight (and cost) of MBT's start to become limiting when compared to a mix of LT, IFV and SPG.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yeah, I suspect the light tank thing is mostly about giving more firepower to light formations, probably with the last war in mind… I think there’s gonna be a major revisiting of force structure concepts now. A lot of ground up assessment needs to be done on what Ukraine has proven about what mobility, married to what protection, to what weapons, and to what sensors will be needed for various roles. And to assume that adversaries will be doing the same. Will light tanks still be a perceived need? Or will they be adequately protected for the employment of the type of armament they bring to the fight?

Or will unmanned platforms carrying heavy weapons be what is necessary for a light formation's fire support? What is the speed of manoeuvre?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Re: Russia's veto in the security council. A suggestion

Phase 1: change the rules so that nobody can vote on a security council motion that is directed against them specifically (including all security council members).

Phase 2: Eliminate the permanant security council seat veto as a concept since as more nations become nuclear capable the notion becomes unfair unless it is expanded for Israel, North Korea, India, Pakistan (and the former Soviet states that currently have nuclear weapons).

Phase 3: create a suspension mechanism for security council voting priviledges that removes it for a set (repeatable) period for gross violations of the UN charter until the violations have ceased.

Phase 4: acknoweledge that Russia is not the USSR and thus the direct succession is invalid. This step is moot if all the other former nuclear capable Soviet states are added to the security council. If not then all the former Soviet states that are still nuclear capable (including Russia) share the USSR seat rotationaly, changing annually.

Here is the issue with those changes
1: The whole point in the veto is to prevent issues they don't want to go against them from going against them.
2: Not going to happen, the whole point was to lock in the major powers of WWII as the leaders and give them control, not to fairly and equally share power. Nothing to do with nukes, when the UN was created only one nation was nuclear capable.
3: Good luck again, the UN is more about certain countries retaining power than equitably sharing it
4: That is the only one capable of possibly happening as the constitution is clear that the USSR is the permanent security council member, and the USSR no longer exists.

Basically the UN isn't about uniting anything, it is about a few distinct nations using it for direct power and control. It is a corrupt organization which is flawed from the onset. The only real way to rectify it would be to do a completely separate organization as otherwise someone in the security council will veto any major changes as it isn't in their interest (US included).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As much as I despise the UN, it does act as a place where all parties can mingle and meet. I suspect the most important work is done quietly in back rooms.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sure, why not? In fact needed more than heavy tanks since as cheap top attack smart fire and forget man portable AT missiles proliferate the extra armour, caliber weight (and cost) of MBT's start to become limiting when compared to a mix of LT, IFV and SPG.

The 105mm Light Gun M119/L118 has a total mass, including trails, wheels and platform, of 1858 kg.

If you removed the trails, wheels and platform what weight is left. Something about 1 tonne?

Could a one tonne gun be mounted on a Wiesel Optionally Manned Weapons Carrier and achieve a load that could be slung by a CH-148/CH-147 class helicopter?

Mass	1,858 kg (4,096 lb)

Mass	2.75 t to 4.78 t

Wiesel AWC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KevinB]

The 105mm Light Gun M119/L118 has a total mass, including trails, wheels and platform, of 1858 kg.

If you removed the trails, wheels and platform what weight is left. Something about 1 tonne?

Could a one tonne gun be mounted on a Wiesel Optionally Manned Weapons Carrier and achieve a load that could be slung by a CH-148/CH-147 class helicopter?

Mass	1,858 kg (4,096 lb)

Mass	2.75 t to 4.78 t

Wiesel AWC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Recoil would kill the platform. Or it would need spades and then limit the arc and increase weight.

 

[Kirkhill]

@KevinB

Spades you say? I'm sure those would never work.

 

[KevinB]

@KevinB

Spades you say? I'm sure those would never work.

View attachment 75821

But why on earth would you make a 105mm SPA?
Sure you can make one - but why.