- Reaction score
- 16,347
- Points
- 1,090
Ukraine - Superthread
- Thread starter CougarKing
- Start date
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 8,122
- Points
- 1,160
As I said before, we will be coming with what we have and if we get into a major meat grinder, there will be very little spare armour in other nations inventory, so you be thankfully for those "armoured bank cars". Even if GDLS worked shifts around the clock, I suspect they could barely keep up with the combat losses and skyrocketing part demand and we would not be able to add new units equipped with LAV's.
As for China and AR's , they abandoned the Canadian AR market, because they could not even compete there and had to sell at a comparable price point to a US made one. I have a Nork AR, it works, but it's definitely not in the same class as my DPMS one. (insert: intense sorrow about my locker full of now safe queens).
I suspect that the number of working Leo 2's we could bring would limit our armour to basically providing some fire support and not any offensive ops. Likely we can only hope the US can find us some spare older M1's, to slowly replace the Leo's.
The reason I went with RPG-7 is that you can fit a huge variety of warheads to it, as the targets requires. I would see them as supplements to the Carl G and M72, attempting to make up for the total lack of organic firepower in the CAF and also would expect most of our current stocks would be lost in a few months.
I see our current abilty to mobilize and train new recruits, just slightly better than where we were in 1939. Hopefully the lessons learned training Ukrainian recruits can be digested and modified to suit.
- Reaction score
- 7,617
- Points
- 1,160
Top Ten Aeronautical Engineering Companies in Canada | NEWENGINEER
The Canadian aerospace industry plays a big part of the Canadian economy. In 2018, the industry contributed over $25 billion to GDP and was responsible for 213,000 jobs. Until the pandemic hit, those numbers had increased year on year. The country’s aeronautical companies cover a broad spectrum...
newengineer.com
Magellan Aerospace, Winnipeg - Magellan Aerospace
About this Location Manufactures and engineers complex aeroengine components and assemblies, and offers component repair and overhaul services. Manufactures and engineers advanced aerostructures fabrications, advanced carbon fibre composite assemblies, and proprietary products including small...
magellan.aero
On the aerospace front we could be in unmanned aircraft business.
Who holds the drawings for these?
Canadair CL-89 - Wikipedia
Canadair CL-227 Sentinel - Wikipedia
We don't lack the skills. In any field. We don't even lack the money. We are Wanting In Military Proficiency.
- Reaction score
- 17,589
- Points
- 1,260
It’s not a lack of Military Proficiency.
It’s a lack of demand for goods.
You have a near zero demand in Canada.
So your supply is either near zero, or mostly gets incorporated into larger systems by US or other Foreign Defense Companies.
Part of the reason for this is Canada rarely buys in early on larger projects that NATO allies run. Chretien’s Liberals had Canada bailed on EH-101 and that cost the defense industrial base in Canada massively, and instead of a single platform that would have done SAR, Medium Lift and Maritime Helo roles, you got a barebones SAR bird, a different orphan Maritime Helicopter, and no MH Helo. The same could be said about Mulrooney’s Conservatives with the Griffon boondoggle over the Blackhawk (albeit I don’t think the industrial spinoff for that would have amounted to much, as Sik was already up and running them in CT) - but you got a third rate Helo instead of a first rate one, and that was a significant hit to TacHel capability. Now had Canada bought in to FLRAA earlier and gambled on Bell (who won) there may have also been spin-offs for Mirable and some Canadian content or subassembly work).
The GoC, and subsets are the Canadian Defense Industry’s (and the CAF’s) biggest problems as there is little appetite to properly support and provision the Force.
Part of this problem belongs to the CAF and the Future Capabilities folks not looking forward to the needs. But it’s also a resource issue as Canada doesn’t buy enough equipment to meet the needs anyway in most cases.
Since Canada doesn’t even get enough Equipment for the Regular Army, the Reserve Force gets an even larger amount of nothingness.
If Canada took the concept like NSS and used it for the Army and AirForce as well, there would be a massive increase in demand for Canadian Defense Companies and the Industrial base would grow enormously.
It would take time, money and effort, and for some programs it probably wouldn’t be worth it, but for others it would, and some sort of synergy with US and British companies (and the Governments and Militaries) would be the best of both worlds.
The end state should be procurement of the best possible equipment for the CAF with as much Canadian content as possible, but not solely Canadian content.
Combined with a proper replacement and distribution system, Canada could cascade equipment from the regular force to the reserves with both life and support remaining, as well as cascading equipment and materials to war stocks.
@childs56 it isn’t that Canada can’t do things, you just don’t do them. So currently some aspects are out of reach, and have no practical reason to place them in reach, as they aren’t financially feasible.
Mods can we split this subtopic to a new thread on DND and the Canadian Industrial base.
- Reaction score
- 2,458
- Points
- 1,140
My brother went to college for 4yrs to get formally trained as a 'tool and diesman' back in the early 90's. Now there are no college programmes that offer this sort of training, its all done 'in-house' at each machine shop with varying degrees of success and failure and with no accreditation or formal recognition.
Spencer100
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,384
- Points
- 1,040
Because I know you are from around here.
Mechanical Techniques - Precision Metal Cutting | St. Clair College
www.stclaircollege.ca
Is this not the program you would take?
And one more aside. I more I find government or formal "accreditation" for many trades more of a rent seeking or guilds and control of access.
- Reaction score
- 255
- Points
- 780
- Reaction score
- 7,617
- Points
- 1,160
Wanting In Military Proficiency. WIMP.
Or is that a dated reference?
WIMPs don't need, or want military goods.
We agree.
The reason there aren't more suppliers of military goods in Canada is that most Canadians don't think of military things and they don't think about fighting and killing and dying. Many of them get quite upset when you disrupt the annual family picnic and introduce the thought.
The Aussies, our Twins effectively, build stuff that other people want because they do think the dirty thoughts. Yup, they also build stuff that looks as if it was designed by somebody standing upside down but some of their homegrown ideas actually work. Canadians aren't even thinking about the issues.
How many of the tools of the infantry, or even the army, were originated by a staff call?
The Gatling Gun? The Maxim Gun? The Lewis Gun? The Owen Gun? The Mills Bomb? The Stokes Mortar? The Swinton Machine Gun Destroyer? Orville and Wilbur's Flyer?
These solutions came from people who were thinking thoughts the most Canadians don't have. They resulted in tools that were available for trial and exploitation by soldiers. Those tools that saved own forces and killed enemy forces were in demand and the suppliers made lots of money.
I put Quadcopters and Technicals into the same category
We grew up in a society of Christian Temperance women, James Woodsworth, Doukhobors and Mennonites and Union Nationale supporters. Thoughts of killing and dying don't come naturally to those people.
That is why we don't see much in the way of novel, out of the box, tools being made available to the world's soldiery by Canadians. It is also why, when a staff call comes out for a solution to a problem, it is hard to find a Canadian civilian that can begin to grasp the nature of the problem. They don't Grok it. (Another dated reference I'm sure.) They fail to grasp the Commander's Intent and focus on the process of the Execution.
Hence WIMPs. Wanting In Military Proficiency.
Spencer100
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,384
- Points
- 1,040
Yes and No about Australia. Yes they are taking defence more serious than Canada. But the Canadian defence industry is larger and I would say more robust that Oz.
The larger aerospace industry in Canada helps a lot. P&W Canada builds engines, Bell Helicopters, Etc. Being close to the US is biggest advantage. Also Canada still at this time has an Automotive industry. I would give OZ's shipbuilding industry a bit of an edge. Mostly because of Austal.
The companies doing defence work are in two groups mainly suppliers to the International OEM's and local companies supporting the CAF. There is a small third supplying international buyers with things Colt Canada, GDLS-C. But in the first group they have to be world class to supply the big boys. The second group is local MRO, training, services etc. Some world class but mostly just local.
- Reaction score
- 7,617
- Points
- 1,160
Canada produces some excellent detail oriented engineers. As a result it is excellent at supplying systems. Space arms. Landing gear for Chinooks. Engines for flying machines, both civil and military. Satellites and Sonars.
But putting all the pieces of the puzzle together to produce a novel solution that supplies a useful effect on the battlefield? That is not something that I associate with Canadians. The last one of note I would say was Brutinel and his Canadian Automobile Machine Gun Brigade.
- Reaction score
- 17,589
- Points
- 1,260
- Reaction score
- 17,589
- Points
- 1,260
- Reaction score
- 17,589
- Points
- 1,260
And in the Russian collapse debacle.
- Reaction score
- 17,589
- Points
- 1,260
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 8,122
- Points
- 1,160
If Belarus comes apart, I suspect that a side agreement is reached that bulk Western/Ukrainians don't cross the border, if bulk Russian forces don't either. I suspect SF from both sides would be tolerated. I am also guessing most of the people there don't want Western/Ukrainians or Russian forces occupying them or fighting each other. They seen what it did to Ukrainian cities and towns.
My guess is the army would take over and attempt to play the same balancing act as the previous leader did.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 22,592
- Points
- 1,160
This is all falling nicely into my 'Left Flanking' theory for the upcoming counter-offensive. The UA has just stood up a Marine Corps, for example:
Currently, the Marine Corps structure contains as follows:
- 35th Marine Brigade named after Rear Admiral Mykhailo Ostrohradskyi;
- 36th Marine Brigade named after Rear Admiral Mykhailo Bilynsky;
- 503rd Separate Marine Battalion;
- 406th Artillery Brigade named after Khorunzhoy General Oleksii Almazov;
- 32nd Artillery Regiment;
- 140th Separate Reconnaissance Battalion.
In fact, in terms of the number and acquired capabilities, Ukrainian marine units have already reached the size of the Corps, so now it only takes the reformation of management into a single “organism” for the MC to be fully formed.
Marine Corps to be created in the Ukrainian Armed Forces
President Volodymyr Zelensky has announced the establishing of the Marine Corps in the Armed Forces of Ukraine
mil.in.ua
Spencer100
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,384
- Points
- 1,040
Not really new. RAF Rivet Joint and the FORTE10 have been flying those for over a year. The one UAV was knocked out by the Russians.
FormerHorseGuard
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 412
- Points
- 760
Well we have firearm manufacturers in Canada. Yes
Yes there are a few but a lot are owned by American ( they control end users, makes it hard to sell without US approval)
1 company is still Canadian. Google end user agreements on weapons, and weapons systems. It can be an a real eye opener. Then read how you must retire a vehicle or ship or gun system. Some have to be sent back for a fee to the manufacturer for disposal or sent back to the US government as they hold the disposal rights.
UH-1 had to go back to the US for resell, was used by the Columbian army and police.
We had go and destroy weapons on a retired Canadian Navy ship because it was not being scrapped in Nation allowed to have those weapons ( could not allow them to be resold as spare parts under an arms agreement)
We have R&D in Canada. Yes
Canadians can research the hell out of something, but someone has to pay for it in the end. No point researching a military project or program if there is not more than 1 end user, because the cost for that one end user is rather high.
We have welding companies in Canada who can weld armoured vehicles. Yes
Outside of the GDLS-C most of the companies do not start with their own frames, etc, they start with F550 from Ford. It is a step up from the armoured cash truck companies. Very limited use on the battlefield. Might be a great a truck to drive a small team of special operators to a hostage situation or move a high value VIP around if protection levels require uparmoured trucks. Leo2 tank is a cast armoured body. Abrams is mix of cast and welded parts. That is why when Canada last built a tank in the 1940s that they had Canadian Pacific Railroad built it for them, they had the knowledge of casting locomotive parts that were bigger than a tank. They no longer build their locomotives they are outsourced from the USA now. Lost skill set again
We have ammunition and ordanance manufacturing in Canada. Yes.
Yes there are companies who make military grade ammo in Canada, one major company that does everything from 9mm to 155mm, plus grenades and other needed materials. ( But another American company operating in Canada, end user agreements come into affect who it can be sold to etc. )
We have various aerospace manufacturing in Canada. Yes
Have not built a war bird in Canada in decades, Canadair Sabre Jets copies of the US Jet. They assembly Bell Helicopters in the Montreal Area, they do not design or built, more like advanced model kits.
Bombardier has built aircraft, for the RCAF but not combat aircraft, they have built trucks MLVW copy of US model with Canadian parts added, Ilits German design and Canadian added on parts. But they have never built an aircraft that carries a weapons system. Companies they purchased have done it in the past but that was the 1940s and Second World War was on and everyone was building war aircraft of some kind or another.
We have war ship building in Canada. Yes.
Last warship actually built in Canada, I do not count the Halifax Class as war ship, frigates with one main gun, not really war ship material ( just a personal opinion)
Destroyers were last built in 1969 to mid 70s
Destroyer Escort Class 1950s to mid 1960s
If you do not build more then every 50 years, you lose the skill sets
We have advanced electronic manufacturing in Canada. Yes.
Lots of advance electronic companies but they can go years between military grade contracts, so they lose skillsets too.
I am not an expert but I can research and google any topic enough to get the basic understanding of who builds it, who designs and who copies it. I never question the inhouse experts here because they have knowledge I do not have.
Yes there are a few but a lot are owned by American ( they control end users, makes it hard to sell without US approval)
1 company is still Canadian. Google end user agreements on weapons, and weapons systems. It can be an a real eye opener. Then read how you must retire a vehicle or ship or gun system. Some have to be sent back for a fee to the manufacturer for disposal or sent back to the US government as they hold the disposal rights.
UH-1 had to go back to the US for resell, was used by the Columbian army and police.
We had go and destroy weapons on a retired Canadian Navy ship because it was not being scrapped in Nation allowed to have those weapons ( could not allow them to be resold as spare parts under an arms agreement)
We have R&D in Canada. Yes
Canadians can research the hell out of something, but someone has to pay for it in the end. No point researching a military project or program if there is not more than 1 end user, because the cost for that one end user is rather high.
We have welding companies in Canada who can weld armoured vehicles. Yes
Outside of the GDLS-C most of the companies do not start with their own frames, etc, they start with F550 from Ford. It is a step up from the armoured cash truck companies. Very limited use on the battlefield. Might be a great a truck to drive a small team of special operators to a hostage situation or move a high value VIP around if protection levels require uparmoured trucks. Leo2 tank is a cast armoured body. Abrams is mix of cast and welded parts. That is why when Canada last built a tank in the 1940s that they had Canadian Pacific Railroad built it for them, they had the knowledge of casting locomotive parts that were bigger than a tank. They no longer build their locomotives they are outsourced from the USA now. Lost skill set again
We have ammunition and ordanance manufacturing in Canada. Yes.
Yes there are companies who make military grade ammo in Canada, one major company that does everything from 9mm to 155mm, plus grenades and other needed materials. ( But another American company operating in Canada, end user agreements come into affect who it can be sold to etc. )
We have various aerospace manufacturing in Canada. Yes
Have not built a war bird in Canada in decades, Canadair Sabre Jets copies of the US Jet. They assembly Bell Helicopters in the Montreal Area, they do not design or built, more like advanced model kits.
Bombardier has built aircraft, for the RCAF but not combat aircraft, they have built trucks MLVW copy of US model with Canadian parts added, Ilits German design and Canadian added on parts. But they have never built an aircraft that carries a weapons system. Companies they purchased have done it in the past but that was the 1940s and Second World War was on and everyone was building war aircraft of some kind or another.
We have war ship building in Canada. Yes.
Last warship actually built in Canada, I do not count the Halifax Class as war ship, frigates with one main gun, not really war ship material ( just a personal opinion)
Destroyers were last built in 1969 to mid 70s
Destroyer Escort Class 1950s to mid 1960s
If you do not build more then every 50 years, you lose the skill sets
We have advanced electronic manufacturing in Canada. Yes.
Lots of advance electronic companies but they can go years between military grade contracts, so they lose skillsets too.
I am not an expert but I can research and google any topic enough to get the basic understanding of who builds it, who designs and who copies it. I never question the inhouse experts here because they have knowledge I do not have.
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 7,599
- Points
- 1,260
The Halifax Class (CPF) you don't consider a war ship ?
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 8,122
- Points
- 1,160
I definitely class the Halifax's as a warship with a focus on ASW.
Considering the majority of causality in Ukraine are coming from artillery the Ford based light armoured vehicles (lets call then VLAV's) do make a difference and in their case supplement the BMP's and M113's. These VLAV's will fill similar roles as did the armoured CMP in WWII, Sigs, ambulances, CP, route security, etc. When you are either the US or your Canada with one barely equipped Brigade, you can then use LAV's for everything. but when you have an army of several hundred thousands of troops on a tight budget and high loss rate, then you need every armoured vehicle you can get your hands onto. The armoured vehicle in your hand now is worth more than a vague promise of something better in the future. the reality is Canada could not expand it's army without using VLAV's to fill the gaps ans we don't have the capacity to ramp up LAV production to expand and support/replace losses of our current fleet.
Considering the majority of causality in Ukraine are coming from artillery the Ford based light armoured vehicles (lets call then VLAV's) do make a difference and in their case supplement the BMP's and M113's. These VLAV's will fill similar roles as did the armoured CMP in WWII, Sigs, ambulances, CP, route security, etc. When you are either the US or your Canada with one barely equipped Brigade, you can then use LAV's for everything. but when you have an army of several hundred thousands of troops on a tight budget and high loss rate, then you need every armoured vehicle you can get your hands onto. The armoured vehicle in your hand now is worth more than a vague promise of something better in the future. the reality is Canada could not expand it's army without using VLAV's to fill the gaps ans we don't have the capacity to ramp up LAV production to expand and support/replace losses of our current fleet.
Similar threads
