We actually have a other yards that could begin producing modules. Heddle has the capability of producing ships or even modules that could be transported to either Davies or Irving. Then there is the old St. John facility that could theoretically be re-activated although that would take a lot of time and money. There are additional small yards that currently manufacture barges and the like so they could possibly be tasked with producing smaller hulls. We even have an outfit on the west coast I think, that produces an excellent mini-sub so they could possibly start producing submersible rpvs.
Ukraine - Superthread
- Thread starter CougarKing
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 2,458
- Points
- 1,140
All very true, but the other 6 G7 countries have more extensive industries than we do, along with another dozen or two other countries, some smaller, some much bigger. For a country of this size and wealth, we really should have a number of larger 'champions' but we don't just like we really have no 'champions' in other industries at the global level.
- Reaction score
- 2,458
- Points
- 1,140
Fixed it for you.
Spencer100
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,384
- Points
- 1,040
LOL the largest Global Canadian company is a corner store!
Alimentation Couche-Tard.
Says something about us........
McG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 2,718
- Points
- 1,160
CADSI / AICDS
The Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries (CADSI) is the national industry voice of more than 900 Canadian defence and security companies.
www.defenceandsecurity.ca
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 8,122
- Points
- 1,160
West coast was into subs and submersibles long before they were the cool new toys. Fist subs for Canada, subs built for Russia, Pisces sub, autonomous submersibles in the 1980's, Tourist subs (12ish I think built), even the Videoray ROV was designed here.
FormerHorseGuard
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 412
- Points
- 760
Biggest problems for Canada to ramp up and build anything on the scale required for war, first off we have to have a product to build. Takes years now to design, model and test before it can be built. If something is to be sole sourced and built in Canada, first off you have consider we are what I think of as once a generation kind of builder. The governments over the last 70 plus years seems to think everything has a shelf life of 40 years or more. Tanks, replaced once every 25 to 30 years now, Leo 1s were ordered in 1976 ( leased ) then purchased 1977/78, replacing a 1969/70 purchase of Centurion tanks (Leo were part of a trade deal with Germany ) Leos were replaced in 2007 with Leo 2s.
So a trooper in the armour regiment could be 18 in 1976 and still be serving in 2007 at 49 and retire out on the Leo 2 .
Canada has given away its arms business outside of small arms and some AFV made in London.
Navy ships the last ships built of any size was in the 50/60s those ship builders are all retired , the ship builders with the Halifax classes are near retirement if not retired.
You cannot ramp up a work force to deliver a airplane a week, or a ship a month or tank every other week, unless your work force has the skill sets to build them more than once every 30 years. We do not even have the skillsets in Canada to over haul or refit a tank here. Have to have over seas companies do it because no one here has the work force trained to do it.
Dash 8 series of aircraft built between 1984 and 2019, 35 years of building 1258 aircraft, averaging 35.9 aircraft a year or 1 aircraft every 10 days. That is a no thrills aircraft, no jet engine, no weapons systems, and basic layout.
F35 model takes 41 500 labour hours to produce 1 aircraft. in 2021 they were scheduled to produce 156 aircraft, less than 1/2 aircraft a day. CH 47 chinook production rate is 72 models a year. 0.19 helicopters a day.
If the mighty US Machine cannot build a chinook in a day, Canada has no hope in hell of doing it. Every factory Canadian government of any level gets involved in to build a piece of military equipment seems to disappear soon as the last truck rolls out of the factory door and the tail lights disappear in the distance it closes the factory.
Canada has nothing to ramp up.
Lancaster bomber once full production was ramped up they could turn out 25 a week. First flew Jan 1941, operational by October 1941
Cost between 45 and 50 000 pounds , in 2009 would equal around 1.3 to 1.5 million pounds
430 aircraft were built in Canada ( no bombing of the plants or Canada during the war) 6947 were built as England was at war and being bombed.
HMCS Haida ordered April 1940, Launched 25 August 1942, commissioned 30 August 1943 cannot find a cost. How would you expect to build it faster if during a war with ship builders on the war footing and had a lot of experience building ships over 3 years and there no were electronics or computers, or other high tech gear to build and install.
Canada spent some where around 21.8 billion dollars on the Second World War.
HMCS Ottawa (229) the helicopter carrying destroyer 1956 to 1992 no replacements
HMCS Halifax
planned in 1977
Laid down 19 March 1987
Launched 30 April 1988
Commissioned 29 June 1992
12 ships cost over 4.3 billion ( 358 million dollars for each of them )
Canada is now thinking it will cost 84 Billion dollars to get a new fleet up and running , over 5 billion has been spent and nothing to show yet.
Aircraft, that is another 14.2 billion dollar program and first one on the ground in 2026, and operational by 2033, 2034
Canada cannot even ramp up and buy a simple handgun for the CF without taking 20 years to decide on one
9500 handguns at 7.6 million dollars ( 800 dollars each)
Last fighter jet made in Canada the CF 100 Canuck service dates 1952 to 1981, 692 produced.
The Canadair Sabre Jet, a copy of the American Jet with Canadian Modifications 1950-1958 1815 units produced.
Last military aircraft built in Canada that I can find is the Bell 412 helicopter, but it was assembled not designed or manufactured.
Other problem is Canada cannot sell American or other designs without approval of the design country , ( could not sell the old Hueys had to go back to the US for resale, arms agreements) so even if we did build it another country would control our sales unless it was 100% Canadian made. From the ground up. Navy ship 100 % Canadian designs, weapons systems 100 % Canadian Design, radar 100% Canadian, and the list goes on.
Hard to compete with the mighty US companies if their government can control our end user sales.
Just my opinion
So a trooper in the armour regiment could be 18 in 1976 and still be serving in 2007 at 49 and retire out on the Leo 2 .
Canada has given away its arms business outside of small arms and some AFV made in London.
Navy ships the last ships built of any size was in the 50/60s those ship builders are all retired , the ship builders with the Halifax classes are near retirement if not retired.
You cannot ramp up a work force to deliver a airplane a week, or a ship a month or tank every other week, unless your work force has the skill sets to build them more than once every 30 years. We do not even have the skillsets in Canada to over haul or refit a tank here. Have to have over seas companies do it because no one here has the work force trained to do it.
Dash 8 series of aircraft built between 1984 and 2019, 35 years of building 1258 aircraft, averaging 35.9 aircraft a year or 1 aircraft every 10 days. That is a no thrills aircraft, no jet engine, no weapons systems, and basic layout.
F35 model takes 41 500 labour hours to produce 1 aircraft. in 2021 they were scheduled to produce 156 aircraft, less than 1/2 aircraft a day. CH 47 chinook production rate is 72 models a year. 0.19 helicopters a day.
If the mighty US Machine cannot build a chinook in a day, Canada has no hope in hell of doing it. Every factory Canadian government of any level gets involved in to build a piece of military equipment seems to disappear soon as the last truck rolls out of the factory door and the tail lights disappear in the distance it closes the factory.
Canada has nothing to ramp up.
Lancaster bomber once full production was ramped up they could turn out 25 a week. First flew Jan 1941, operational by October 1941
Cost between 45 and 50 000 pounds , in 2009 would equal around 1.3 to 1.5 million pounds
430 aircraft were built in Canada ( no bombing of the plants or Canada during the war) 6947 were built as England was at war and being bombed.
HMCS Haida ordered April 1940, Launched 25 August 1942, commissioned 30 August 1943 cannot find a cost. How would you expect to build it faster if during a war with ship builders on the war footing and had a lot of experience building ships over 3 years and there no were electronics or computers, or other high tech gear to build and install.
Canada spent some where around 21.8 billion dollars on the Second World War.
HMCS Ottawa (229) the helicopter carrying destroyer 1956 to 1992 no replacements
HMCS Halifax
planned in 1977
Laid down 19 March 1987
Launched 30 April 1988
Commissioned 29 June 1992
12 ships cost over 4.3 billion ( 358 million dollars for each of them )
Canada is now thinking it will cost 84 Billion dollars to get a new fleet up and running , over 5 billion has been spent and nothing to show yet.
Aircraft, that is another 14.2 billion dollar program and first one on the ground in 2026, and operational by 2033, 2034
Canada cannot even ramp up and buy a simple handgun for the CF without taking 20 years to decide on one
9500 handguns at 7.6 million dollars ( 800 dollars each)
Last fighter jet made in Canada the CF 100 Canuck service dates 1952 to 1981, 692 produced.
The Canadair Sabre Jet, a copy of the American Jet with Canadian Modifications 1950-1958 1815 units produced.
Last military aircraft built in Canada that I can find is the Bell 412 helicopter, but it was assembled not designed or manufactured.
Other problem is Canada cannot sell American or other designs without approval of the design country , ( could not sell the old Hueys had to go back to the US for resale, arms agreements) so even if we did build it another country would control our sales unless it was 100% Canadian made. From the ground up. Navy ship 100 % Canadian designs, weapons systems 100 % Canadian Design, radar 100% Canadian, and the list goes on.
Hard to compete with the mighty US companies if their government can control our end user sales.
Just my opinion
Eaglelord17
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,486
- Points
- 1,040
Don’t forget the fact we have a extreme shortage of tradespeople in this country which is only going to get worse in the coming years without a dramatic change in how we train them. I don’t see anyone with the willpower to fix that at the moment.
We can barely keep up with the current industry demand, how do we reasonably expect to add to it?
We can barely keep up with the current industry demand, how do we reasonably expect to add to it?
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 8,122
- Points
- 1,160
We have 3 companies building lightweight armoured vehicles and lots of small machine shops with cnc machines to push out AR. Fun fact, China gave up trying to compete with the US on making uppers and lowers for AR's as the US could make them cheaper than China could. So we can produce a large contingent of light infantry with small arms and wheeled armoured vehicles, with the LAV's being parcelled out to provide fire support.
The big question will be can we make enough ammunition using domestic sources?
We could produce knock off of the RPG 7 to beef up our light infantry firepower, likley we would have to focus on mortars to fill the artillery gap. (If ISIS can create an arms industry in 2 years, so can we.)
Using current resources, the LAV 6 is the heaviest and biggest AFV we can make. What the US did pre-WWII is let out contracts to "train industry" and identify production gaps in industry. This was expensive, but it paid huge dividends once the war started.
The big question will be can we make enough ammunition using domestic sources?
We could produce knock off of the RPG 7 to beef up our light infantry firepower, likley we would have to focus on mortars to fill the artillery gap. (If ISIS can create an arms industry in 2 years, so can we.)
Using current resources, the LAV 6 is the heaviest and biggest AFV we can make. What the US did pre-WWII is let out contracts to "train industry" and identify production gaps in industry. This was expensive, but it paid huge dividends once the war started.
- Reaction score
- 4,420
- Points
- 1,140
Canadian business are only just now starting to see that the old way is no longer viable, and they need to incentivize people to come to them rather than rely on people begging to get in.
In 20 years the CAF will catch up...
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 22,592
- Points
- 1,160
Milton Friedman enters the chat, with his pencil
Milton Friedman points out the remarkable degree of cooperation between people from many different countries, who’ve never even met, to make what appears to be a very simple product – a pencil. The free market encourages cooperation between strangers. And the end result is that we all benefit – in this case, by having pencils to use.
- Reaction score
- 16,347
- Points
- 1,090
For many military production lines, there is no current incentive to work faster. Lines are kept open at low rates of production to maintain that capacity; once closed, lines can be challenging to reopen.
Don't confuse current production rates with maximums.
Don't confuse current production rates with maximums.
Eaglelord17
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,486
- Points
- 1,040
Its worse than that.
Canada has never had a good training system for the trades, those trained in Canada were either trained in WWII or through nepotism (close friends and family). The way Canada made up the short fall is by importing skilled tradespeople from Europe. Now the Europeans have a good standard of living and have no wish to come to Canada anymore. There isn’t anywhere else in the world that has equivalent standards which people want to immigrate from.
This all can be fixed but it is a expensive, time consuming endeavour which involves fighting unions, school boards, parents, employers, and politicians. No one has will to do it at the moment and shall instead pretend to make small changes well the situation gets worse.
I profess expertise in absolutely nothing. What I was alluding to is your tendency to drop into threads and - kinda condescendingly - act as if you have quite a bit of knowledge in fields where what you say then fails to stand up to the scrutiny of people with depth of knowledge. Policing, logistics, trucking and I think corrections leap immediately to mind as instances from the past few months. It’s been noticed and remarked on by other members several times over now, and then you entered this thread and added military intelligence and arms exports to your repertoire.
I won’t pretend to have a clue beyond the normal layperson about things like weapons manufacturing and exports. @KevinB is one of those people who very much does, which is why is a bit of a head shaker to see you coming in to ‘splain it, telling him he has “little to no knowledge” of a field where, generally, he’s probably one of the better if not best informed people on this site.
Maxman1
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 1,011
- Points
- 960
Sounds like another point in favour of switching to Abrams. Transporting tanks to Ohio for overhaul is a lot simpler than transporting them to Germany.
- Reaction score
- 17,589
- Points
- 1,260
I’d argue that you have one of those companies (GDLS) and several that make a ‘armored bank car’.
Marketing not withstanding those types of vehicles are good for security type activities not conflict zones.
That’s not entirely true. We just don’t allow them to be imported.
But frankly and upper and lower is a $15-20 piece of aluminum, it’s not a part that requires a lot of know how.
Ammunition at least small arms is a simple task, as long as you have a production line and components.
Canada’s issue is more of poor acquisition planning by DND than a production issue.
Why? The RPG-7 is a steaming turd. I thought the M72 C7 version was a domestic product, and while not ideal, it’s better than the RPG. The AT-4 is plentiful to buy and you have Carl G’s too.
It’s the only AFV made in Canada.
But none of this matters as Canada doesn’t need a large Defense Industry as it has a very small Armed Forces and no real Reserves (quantity).
Most importantly what does this have to do with this thread???
- Reaction score
- 4,420
- Points
- 1,140
Great question... I suspect it has a lot to do with the poor quality of issued boots, and the need for Sam Browne belts for CA officers.
Drive truck, do you, Drove some of the heaviest equipment in Canada around some of the shittiest terrain, which would eat Canadian Military heavy lift capabilty. Worked Corrections dealt directly with the very people the person questioned me over. Again they are hiring if your looking for a job to get first hand experience. Logistics are part of the trucking world along with the Oilfield. I have a bit of experience in a few things and have a few friends deeply involved in a few other industries who make the wheels turn.
Obviously some people have no clue about manufacturing, R&D within Canada. Nor the expertise Canada provides on the International market for things such as Aerospace, Defence industries, logistics, trucking etc. It has been rebuked a few times about the expert opinions of some. Honestly a few on here have remarked that Canada does not possess the capabilities to manufacture, repair and or overhaul specialty items. Which because we don't or do not on a large scale does not mean we can not. Process for one specific industries ties directly into another.
It is funny how the same people who constantly fight against anything I say, are the same one who if I said the sky was blue, they would disagree and call me gerald butts.
Canadian industry is pretty robust, high-tech and usually fills valuable aspects to other programs. Just because you never heard of or feel that, does not mean you or others are correct.
Who would have thought a small company out of Medicine Hat Ab was repairing and building UAVs for the US Government. Not this guy until I read about it in a defence update and met a person who works for them. I wonder if Kelowna Flight Craft gets any recognition from the "experts" on here for their contributions to Defence within Canada our our Allies. Or the various other companies through out Canada.
Discussion is part of these forums or so I thought, Insults and complete attacks appear to be also. Rebuttal of opinions makes things interesting, I think going forward I will let the "experts" be the only comments on any and all subjects. I will just be a reader of things here for the next while. Leave things to the "experts"
Cheers everyone, it has been a slice.
If you’ve done a couple of those things, excellent. That being the case, maybe consider what it is about your approach to discussion that has rubbed a number of people the wrong way- enough that it’s been noteworthy. I’m not the first to comment on it.
Nobody here expects contribution to be limited to only those with real expertise, or
most of us would be silent on almost everything. Many of us know some lesser or occasionally greater amount about subjects of discussion. But, sometimes, communicating through a wall of text makes it very easy to come off as arrogant or confrontational. I’ve been summed up on that before myself. Maybe nobody has called your attention to it before here.
How you respond to that is your call. Anyway, I’ve said my bit.
Maxman1
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 1,011
- Points
- 960
"The point is I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time..."
Similar threads
