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Two Canadian warships collide during exercise manoeuvres en route to Hawaii

Old Sweat said:
Is not that supported by the relatively minor damage from the collision to the hanger on ALQ as if PRO had been moving at any sort of speed, she could/would have caused more damage and might even have sunk ALQ?

Not to speak of this incident, but in the late 80s, HMCS PRESERVER was conducting a RAS with HMS Penelope.  When Penelope broke away on completion of the RAS, she suffered an engineering casualty and ended up in front of PRE.  PRE had nowhere to go.  She broke Penelope's back and opened her hull.  Penelope was not worth repairing.  PRE was barely scratched.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Not to speak of this incident, but in the late 80s, HMCS PRESERVER was conducting a RAS with HMS Penelope.  When Penelope broke away on completion of the RAS, she suffered an engineering casualty and ended up in front of PRE.  PRE had nowhere to go.  She broke Penelope's back and opened her hull.  Penelope was not worth repairing.  PRE was barely scratched.

Actually, Penelope was sold the the Ecuadorian Navy, where she remained in service until 2008 as Presidente Eloy Alfaro.
 
she was not worth repairing by the RN.

Whether another navy found the price right....
 
Old Sweat said:
Is not that supported by the relatively minor damage from the collision to the hanger on ALQ as if PRO had been moving at any sort of speed, she could/would have caused more damage and might even have sunk ALQ?

I think, looking at the damage to both ships, that ALG was making an approach on PRO and got too close and got the port fwd portion of her hangar hung up on PRO's bow in the final stages of the approach. She may well have suffered an engineering difficulty or simply "flared" too early. I am sure the BOI will clear it all up
 
Here's the youtube video of the Preserver and Penelope colliding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2vW7B5JLmY
 
As a generic question regarding helm and vessel behaviour, from a keel reference, at a low speed, how much would the stern push out opposite to helm direction?  I.e. a helm command of "STARBOARD 30 (45, etc...)" would kick the stern how much to port of centerline as a vessel began to yaw to starboard?

Regards
G2G
 
I think by the time the realized they were going to hit, it was probably too late to do anything.  The 280s are also prone to being pushed around by beam winds due to the hangar & forward house acting as a large sail, so they tend to have a sort of 'rear drift' at lower speeds.

Will be interesting to see what comes of the investigation, but at the end of the day it's just aluminum and some paint, so could have been worse.  Embarrassing though.

When you do tow approaches though, if you're on the quarterdeck you can actually almost hand the tow line over to the bow of the 'dead' ship when its done properly.  Not quite actually that close, but when you're doing it looks like you can high five the other crew.  Good pucker factor, but pretty fun.
 
Nothing a few cans of devcon and some paint can't fix....

In all seriousness though, I'm not wrapping my brain around this... is this some sort of tactical towing thing? Every time I've ever seen a ship towed, it's either involved a line throwing gun or a RHIB, and the ships were a good distance apart.
 
The money to fix this would buy a lot of pips and crowns, I bet.
 
Potential answers to two previous generic questions:

First of all, how to carry out the approach. One method (shallow angle) has been described and it is the usual method, especially for two ships of the same class. There is a second method, however, used when dealing with two ships that are affected differently by the winds - and you are manoeuvering on a windy day. It's called "crossing the T". Basically, you use it when towing a ship that goes beam-to the wind when stopped - which is the case of PROTECTEUR - by coming with the towing ship steaming slowly up-wind at 90 degrees to the stopped ship going just off her bow. Lines are passed from amidship, so that hopefully you are already heaving in the heavy messenger by the time the stern of the towing ship lines up with the stopped ship. In the present case if there was non-negligible wind, since the IROs have a lot of sail area, that would have been my choice. In such cases, however - you must make absolutely certain that the stopped ship has NO FORWARD MOMENTUM at all. I think this is what happened here. PRO still had some way on - maybe 1/4 or 1/2 knot and everybody noticed too late to do something about it. Not necessarily a big mistake as it is extremely difficult to note such movement in any kind of sea.

Second one, generic question concerning "stern push": As a generic, it is hard to answer this question because it depends on many factor. When a ship puts its helm over, it pivots around its pivot point. portions of the ship forward of this point cut into the turn, while the portions aft skid out of it. Going forward, the pivot point is roughly 1/3 of the way from the stem. So for example a 300 ft ship that would have a 30 degrees change of direction in a few seconds after putting the helm over would see its stern skid out by sin 30 degrees X 200 feet = 100 feet minus the amount that the pivot point itself has come in to the turn in relation to the original course, say 40 feet, would give you  a "skid" of 60 feet. All ships keep tables of their turning data for navigation purposes so these type of things can be calculated if need be.

All this however for very slow speeds, works out for a single screw-single rudder ship or a standard twin screw-twin rudder ship. The IRO's aren't such ship. They have twin variable pitch screws and single central rudder. At very low speeds, such as must have been the case here, their screws are feathered but still turning. As a result they act like parachutes and drag down on  the ship. Also as a result, there is little flow over the rudder at these speeds and they provide little help in steering. All this, plus the constantly  varying drag of the port and starboard screws when the ships are rolling in any kind of seas, make slow ship handling an IRO at sea a very difficult and demanding task for the handler.
 
For the record, here's what the RCN has to say....
Her Majesty's Canadian Ship (HMCS) Algonquin and HMCS Protecteur are expected to return to Esquimalt harbour at 4:00 p.m. Saturday following a collision with one another yesterday at approximately 11 a.m. PST while conducting exercise manoeuvres en route to Hawaii. There were no reported injuries.

"The Royal Canadian Navy will be conducting an investigation into this unfortunate incident in order to determine exactly what happened," said Commodore Bob Auchterlonie, Commander of Canadian Fleet Pacific.

The two warships were conducting towing exercises, which require close-quarters manoeuvring, when the incident occurred.

HMCS Algonquin sustained significant damage to her hangar on her port side while HMCS Protecteur sustained damage of a lesser degree to her bow. While the full impact on the ships' future sailing schedules has yet to be determined, HMCS Algonquin will no longer deploy to Asia Pacific region as planned.

A Board of Inquiry will be convened to further investigate the incident and circumstances surrounding it, and will make recommendations as to how to prevent a similar event from occurring in the future. More information about the incident itself will be released when available.
 
Glad to see that the Canadian Navy hasn't fired the skipper of the destroyer.On the other hand had it been a USN skipper would be typing out his resume.Accidents happen and should be a learning experience.
 
It'll depend on the investigation.  The CO on PRE was relieved of command a few years ago after that ship ran into a drydock in Halifax harbour after they looked into it, but it wasn't automatic.

This is kind of a higher risk maneuver on an old ship, so it could have been a mechanical issue as well.
 
Grunt_031 said:
This is why we can"t have nice things!

I fracking near choked on my B'fast wen I read that reply. Well done, Grunt.
 
Look at FlyCo. You can see the chair. Imagine what was going thru the fire fighter's mind when it struck. I think we're lucky nobody was hurt.

Seeing the wave action on the bulkhead is pretty unexpected. I thought it would be a straight line. I don't want to use the word cool, but that aspect kind of is.

Good thing we don't keep the helo in the port side anymore. It would suck for the gym flys though.
 
jollyjacktar said:
That, is going to be expensive to fix.  PRO tis but a scratch, ALG will take some time.  Glad no one was hurt.  When things go wrong like this it is usually spectacular.  I imagine the Zoomies will be shaking in their boots for some time to come at the memory.  :)

It's not the first time for the zoomies. Don't forget the Iroquois crash on the way to the gulf. We've also had guys on other navy ships when this has happened, Chilean was the last one I remember. No, I imagine the boys went straight to the cave and started plugging loonies. I know I would've.

I'd be more worried about the fire fighters. Look at how it opened-up FlyCo.
 
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