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"Training to the test?" (split fm Res Hand to hand)

Dissident

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This thread is damaging my calm.

I've put a lot of personal effort into helping individual troops learn material. That some people give freebies just makes me irationally angry.
 

chrisf

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Is anyone really pretending this crap doesn't happen?

I haven't taught a BMQ in a couple of years, but the last few I did teach, if you didn't quit, you passed. They were for all intents and purposes no fail.

Don't pretend it's the fault of the instructors either, I work very hard when teaching, but when a troop is going to PRB for a third, fourth, or fifth time for the same test, and being given a fourth, fifth, or sixth chance to pass the test, after doing the same thing every other test... maybe it's not the instructors fault... maybe at some point the higher chain of command needs to say "Hey, maybe we're wasting our time trying to slap a hat badge on this idiot"

I always still tried my damndest to teach, but most others just gave up, if you knew the order was going to be retest them, why bother with the PRB?
 

NSDreamer

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a Sig Op said:
Is anyone really pretending this crap doesn't happen?

I haven't taught a BMQ in a couple of years, but the last few I did teach, if you didn't quit, you passed. They were for all intents and purposes no fail.

Don't pretend it's the fault of the instructors either, I work very hard when teaching, but when a troop is going to PRB for a third, fourth, or fifth time for the same test, and being given a fourth, fifth, or sixth chance to pass the test, after doing the same thing every other test... maybe it's not the instructors fault... maybe at some point the higher chain of command needs to say "Hey, maybe we're wasting our time trying to slap a hat badge on this idiot"

I always still tried my damndest to teach, but most others just gave up, if you knew the order was going to be retest them, why bother with the PRB?

  :bullshit: It is my firm opinion that this where the Course O needs to stand up and go Sir/Ma'am, respectfully, you're fubar. Yeah it's a shitty thing to have to do, but I've sat in that exact hot seat and done it, I expect my peers to do it. I don't want the Cpl Bloggins I pass on a course (in this case driver wheel) to be the dumb sh** that ends up killing a family of 4 with the HL.
 

sharki9876

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Interesting, since this forum always advises against "spoon feeding", claiming that you and I won't find this in the army, but... :not-again:
 

Loachman

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The CF, unfortunately, is not free of slugs.

Allowing those who fail, especially consistently and regardless of the effort wasted on them, is inexcusable.
 

krimynal

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I'm happy to see that I am not alone thinking that this was not the right way to do.  My goal was to , at some point in my career, give BMQ's and Trade specified class.... but when I saw my staff, I was thinking that there were no way on earth I would be able to teach like that.  I thought to myself, I'm either going to be someone that recruits are not going to enjoy but they are going to know that I don't stand for B****** or I am not going to teach anything at all......

At least I know There is still hope and that was not suppose to happen !
 

Halifax Tar

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krimynal said:
I'm happy to see that I am not alone thinking that this was not the right way to do.  My goal was to , at some point in my career, give BMQ's and Trade specified class.... but when I saw my staff, I was thinking that there were no way on earth I would be able to teach like that.  I thought to myself, I'm either going to be someone that recruits are not going to enjoy but they are going to know that I don't stand for B****** or I am not going to teach anything at all......

At least I know There is still hope and that was not suppose to happen !

I have done some work in the trg system, teaching QL3 and QL5 sup tech courses.  I think I was an excellent instructor.  I treated my classes like adults and explained to them the standard to achieve and to work do better than that.  I also held them to that standard and when the failed to meet it I corrected it.  I also explained to them to keep their noses clean, behave appropriately and look after each other like a family and I would shield them from anything I could.  I also made myself available at any time to them.

Low and behold I had excellent classes in both the academic and deportment areas.  Some PC failures for sure but every student managed to pass on the rewrite.  None that I thought were undeserving of further employment.

 

krimynal

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I was studying to become a teacher here in Quebec ( want to become a teacher once I retired from the army ).  I remember speaking to one of my teacher here at the university and told her how I envision myself in a school.

I see myself being a Strict yet fair teacher.  Open door policy and I don't mind doing Overtime to help someone that is WILLING to pass.  I will have my rules which are not meant to be cross, or else there will be consequences.  As much as I can be the greatest guy you will ever met, the one that will throw himself in front of the bus for you anytime, as much as I can be the biggest jerk.  This all depends on how you wanna test me.

When I saw my staff, I felt like I was in a kindergarden more then in an army BMQ .... I don't want to see anyone failing , that is clearly not my intention.  But I want to see people put in time and effort, people sticking for eachother and help eachother out.  Which never happened in our BMQ.  People didn't have enough "fear" to feel the need to help eachother....
 

sharki9876

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krimynal said:
I'm happy to see that I am not alone thinking that this was not the right way to do.  My goal was to , at some point in my career, give BMQ's and Trade specified class.... but when I saw my staff, I was thinking that there were no way on earth I would be able to teach like that.  I thought to myself, I'm either going to be someone that recruits are not going to enjoy but they are going to know that I don't stand for B****** or I am not going to teach anything at all......

At least I know There is still hope and that was not suppose to happen !

If this upsets you so much, why don't you talk to someone in your regiment about it? Maybe they will be able to give a better explanation than someone here.
 

krimynal

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trust me , even the staff weren't happy about it either.  Most of them wanted to push us to our limit, and try to break us, As soon as they tried, some higher ranks kicked in and told them to chill down and to stop doing what they were doing.  We had a lot of conversation about the subject to our Mcpl and SGT .... none of them we're happy about it, but it came from higher up !
 

chrisf

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NSDreamer said:
  :bullshit: It is my firm opinion that this where the Course O needs to stand up and go Sir/Ma'am, respectfully, you're fubar. Yeah it's a shitty thing to have to do, but I've sat in that exact hot seat and done it, I expect my peers to do it. I don't want the Cpl Bloggins I pass on a course (in this case driver wheel) to be the dumb sh** that ends up killing a family of 4 with the HL.

I'm glad you're full of piss and vinegar, so best of luck with it  ::)

It really doesn't change the fact that it's happening and happening constantly and consistently.
 

cryco

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Is this happening because there is a fear of a shortage of men and women if they start failing people out? Are the higher ups worried about consequences if the students get pushed to hard or fail and then complain?
Who can this benefit by allowing this to happen?
 

Fishbone Jones

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sharki9876 said:
If this upsets you so much, why don't you talk to someone in your regiment about it? Maybe they will be able to give a better explanation than someone here.

At least get sworn in before you start handing out advice on the military.

Also, unlike yourself, there are tons of people here with loads of experience and a closet full of T-shirts, that know exactly what they are talking about.

BTW, whether intentional or not, your attitude appears to be showing in your last two comments. If that's the case, be careful where you tread.
 

NSDreamer

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a Sig Op said:
I'm glad you're full of piss and vinegar, so best of luck with it  ::)

It really doesn't change the fact that it's happening and happening constantly and consistently.

Heh it's without a doubt a subject that touches a nerve for me. I know it happens, and when I encounter it I will try to fix it. It's the best I can do, and if someday I end up as a Snr Officer in CFLTC, or CLFRS...well...well well.
 

krimynal

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sharki9876 said:
If this upsets you so much, why don't you talk to someone in your regiment about it? Maybe they will be able to give a better explanation than someone here.

that has to be the worst advice ever. 

1st : there is a Chain of Command , and it's there for something, If you have a trouble with the instruction you do it via the CoC.  When the one above you tell you the rule come from higher up.  Well that's the end of it.

2ND : That has to be the greatest way to have a huge frigging target on you're back.  Picture this : So today since Gunner X here thinks we are not doing enough PT he said he would LOVE to run around you guys while doing the 5KM run.  Happy Gunner X ?

3rd : I'm not the one who decide who should pass and fail.  I don't want to fail people out because I THOUGHT the course should be harder ( and trust me , with all the budjet cut they are doing the best they can right now ).

4Th : No one in the situation enjoyed that , but we all had to do it, staff hated it because they felt it was dumb , but couldn't do anything against the direct order.  Us as recruits hated that because we felt some people shouldn't have passed yet here they are wearing the badge ...


For those reason , no I won't go complain to the commander of the unit !
 

cupper

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Unless things have changed over the interceding decades since I did my JLC/CLC and BIT courses, and instructed on TQ1 and Driver Maintenance, the means and methods used for instruction are designed to ensure that even a marginal student should be able to learn what they are being taught.

There will be those that do have difficulty picking up on certain concepts that are foreign to them because they aren't common experience in the civilian world. But with sufficient time spent working with the weakest students, they should be able to get a bare pass on knowledge and skill training sets. Drill is a little different, there are some who are so uncoordinated that left will always be right, but work with them and they can at least look like they know what they are doing. The students need to be able to approach the instructors and ask for additional help. However a good instructor will also identify the weak students that can use it, and work with them without needing to be asked.

And yes there will always be the exception to that rule where they just cannot pick up what you are laying down. Nad there are always going to be students that suck big time at drill. These are the ones that should be given one opportunity to retake the course and then released, as they will never be able to get it. 5 or 6 times you have to wonder why we are wasting time, effort and money.
 

Poacher434

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This is unfortunately...not too uncommon.

The military tends to focus on having successful candidates more than failures.
Try to see it from a broader spectrum.

Hypothetical time.

You are on your Infantry course; brand new to the way of the army, and newer to tactics.
You are learning about recce patrols, and if you are a keener, you can identify differences with VP, RP, ORV, etc.
Now you have no concrete idea on how to conduct them, nor have the soldiering skills to do so effectively.

What I have learned as an instructor and how I feel personally is that if the member can have a very basic knowledge of the working parts within anything, than the course has done its job.

With time, you will learn that the majority of skills perfected and knowledge achieved is through training/discussions with your peers, your own initiative, and generally your exposure to the subject matter.

I have faith that the army shares the same idea, why put a soldier on course for upwards of a year, spend all that money, use up that serial on the course, only to possibly fail them because they cannot complete a written test? Where as perhaps they are someone who learns better through practical components.... now we are jumping into different kinds of learners which is a different discussion on its own.

Essentially, depending on the course, subject matter, trade, etc.... a written test is generally less important than the practical component, especially whereas the written test usually comes immediately after exposure to brand new material.



 

GreenWood

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^ I 100% agree with this post, also, there are many different types of learners. Oral, visual, practical etc.

Someone might have a hard time with written test, but when it gets to doing the task in person, they excels in it. Sometimes it's the other way around...

Also courses now (Ref. to Res) are so condensed that it's almost impossible to retain all that information, but they stated in our course that we will learn and practice more in depth on that subject matter in your unit. And they we right.

Just my  :2c:  ;D

 
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