The War of 1812 Merged Thread

[Zartan]

limited (but very successful if largely unknown) land operations into Maine

Yes, they conquered the whole northern half of Maine, and I once heard that the inhabitants swore allegiance to King George while under occupation.

Interestingly, the war nearly destroyed the United States in a variety of ways. The New England states, which had not only unprovided militia for the war effort, but also freely traded with the British throughout the hostilities, had been seriously contemplating separation. Also, the financial cost of the war effectively bankrupted the United States. If the cutbacks to our Canadian Forces in the '90s were bad, get this: the Americans were unable to field a single unit of Dragoons for nearly twenty years due to the cost of the war.

 

[Whiskey_Dan]

Wow, I just learnt so much more on the war then what I thought I knew.
Can someone answer this...is it true that the British/Canadian(militia) units that fought at the various battles were almost always out numbered by invading American Forces?
I didn't think the cost of a war back then would be so great.

 

[jmacleod]

I gave a small but significant insight into the War of 1812 from the perspective of a Nova Scotian
who is very familier with the naval aspects of the War from the City of Halifax HRM, and access into
many books and articles, plus discussions over the years related to the characteristcs of the War
(the War That Nobody Won). I am not that familier with "trade disputes" between Great Britain
and it's fomer colony, but I know that President James Madison was not partial to negotiations
and many American's including Thomas Jefferson advocated the invasion of Canada, as well
as detesting the arrogant British of the period. Royal Navy based in Halifax were also protecting
commercial shipping of the period whose cargos were slaves destined for North America. What I
have posted is that the War of 1812 started at sea, an historic fact, well documented, when
the United States became incensed at the habit of British naval vessels arbitrarily siezing their
ships and in many cases, entire crews. Authors Francis Parkman, Historian details this, Author
Thomas Raddall of Liverpool was very aware of this as well as historians at Dalhousie University
and the staff of the Citadel Fortress Museum Halifax HRM - a friend in Halifax has a Ph.D. in History
from Queens University, Kingston ON, is another source of facts about the War, often discussed
by the Wellington Society Halifax - a group of former military, academics, businessmen and women
who meet over a dinner on occasion to discuss such history in detail. Because of the profound lack
of appropriate Canadian history in the schools in Canada today, much of the colorful and interesting
real story of this country is being gradually lost. The war at sea during the War of 1812 most certainly
does relate to Nova Scotia, home of the Royal Naval Fleet Atlantic; the RN Battle Ensigns and memorial
placques in various Halifax churches, many built before 1812 attest to that. MacLeod

 

[George Wallace]

Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States (1801-1809).

 

[jmacleod]

American Military History, Army Historical Series, Office of the Chief of Military History, United States
Army, Chapter 6 "The War of 1812" - "Origins of the War"  " The immediate origins of the war were
seizure of American ships, insults and injuries to American seamen by the British Navy, and rapid
expansion of the American frontier. The British outrages at sea took two distinct forms. One was
the seizure and forced sale of merchant ships and their cargoes for allegedly violating the British
blockade of Europe. Although France had declared a counterblockade of the British Isles, and had
seized American ships, England was the chief offender because its Navy had greater command of
the seas. The second, more insulting, type of outrage was the capture of men from American vessels
for forced service in the Royal Navy. The pretaxt for impressment was the search for deserters, who
the British claimed, had taken employment on American vessels. When a British naval vessel in June
1807 attacked and disabled the USS Chesapeake and impressed several members of the crew, President
Jefferson clamped an embargo on America trade. If Jefferson had chosen to go to war with England'
he would have had considerable support" This history text was used in the history curriculum of the
US Military Academy West Point (American History I and II) perhaps it still is. What the textbook states
is historic fact, well known in many academic circles in the US and Canada. MacLeod

 

[DG-41]

If you get a chance, it is well worth it to walk the ground at Lundy's Lane, Queenston Heights, and Ft George. It can be done in a single day if you are at Niagra Falls.

It's kinda funny how many times "There's no way anybody can attack us from down there" shows up in Canadian military history.

DG

 

[Danjanou]

Ok lets see if I can draw you a picture here?

With the exception of some US sources that continue to suggest the whole war was fought over the issue of what or what was not done to US sailors, citizens, ships, and/or maritime trade by the RN, most of the sources I'm familiar with suggest that this was not the underlying cause of the war.

American Military History, Army Historical Series, Office of the Chief of Military History, United States Army, Chapter 6 "The War of 1812" - "Origins of the War"  " The immediate origins of the war were seizure of American ships, insults and injuries to American seamen by the British Navy....... What the textbook states is historic fact, well known in many academic circles in the US and Canada. MacLeod

Seen?

I could quote show you other sources that suggest that the root cause of the war was US expansionism. Guess what they're also historic facts. Following your logic because someone with the appropriate alphabet after their name (and yes BTW I have said alphabet after mine) wrote it down it is defacto "historic fact."  In theory that means that in some distance future this little pissing contest might also be considere "historic fact" by someone. Now that is both a scary and depressing thought this early in th morning.

Because of the profound lack of appropriate Canadian history in the schools in Canada today, much of the colorful and interesting real story of this country is being gradually lost.

On this point I will agree with you.

 

[Danjanou]

Wow, I just learnt so much more on the war then what I thought I knew.
Can someone answer this...is it true that the British/Canadian(militia) units that fought at the various battles were almost always out numbered by invading American Forces?

Dan, for the most part yes, which is why they were on the defensive for the first year of the war. It also makes some of the victories even more surprising. Check out the numbers on each side for Detroit, Chryslers Farm and/or Chateauguay. A case of quality both in regards to the leadershiop and the troops themsleves over quantity.

Ironically in later battles such as Plattsburg, and New Orleans the British had the superior numbers. In both cases negated by incompetent and/or timid leadership.

 

[Jonny Boy]

i was just wondering, What was M/Gen Brock's favorite regiment. in a couple of books i have read (not big fancy books so it could be wrong) that he loved the york volunteers or something like that. i think they were one of the regiments that were at queenston heights when he was shot. i was also wondering was this the same regiment that later became the queens york rangers? i would really like to know because i just visited queenston heights and i want to go back again to see fort George (there was a fire so it had to close before i could go in). i would also like to go back there with some more knowledge about the battles that took place around there.

 

[Bill Smy]

I am cetain that your local library or university library will have a good selection of books on the war (Brock University lists 548 titles), but here are a few relating to Brock and Niagara:--

The Death of Isaac Brock by Pierre Berton
A Very Interesting Affair: The Battle of Queenston Heights by Robert Malcomson
Burying General Brock by Robert Malcomson
Finding Brock's Monument: A Report of the Find on Queenston Heights by Christopher Cooper
Isaac Brock: Larger than Life by Ven Begamudre
The Burning of Niagara: A Tragic Event During the War of 1812 by Carl Friesen
The Burning of Fort George by Ernest Cruikshank
The Green Tiger: James FitzGibbon, a Hero of the War of 1812 by Enid Mallory
Niagara 1814: America Invades Canada by Richard Barbuto
A Fair Experiment: The Niagara Campaign of 1814 by Richard Barbuto

And if you're going to travel about the peninsula you might want to plan your trip by using Colin Duquemin's, The Driver's Guide to the Niagara Battlefileds in the War of 1812

 

[Lineman052]

I believe this topic has crashed?  However, I have found some interesting reading in Regt Histories as well as documents found in County records (if you can find them in National Archives) that can place linages of Modern Day Regt's to 1812 Companies.

I beg to differ with one contributor on the Linages, Most Counties if not all actually sent Platoons to Company size members to battles in different parts of North America, One such Company came from western Canada.

It is to bad we do not have more Canadians interested in this time period, as our Canadian Identity started rooting itself then and was made a solid foundation at Vimy Ridge.

 

[3rd Herd]

​

Life in the Colonial Militia

The feats of bravery and endurance of Canadian militiamen have become the stuff of legends. In the eyes of their enemies, the Canadians possessed superhuman abilities. They were capable of traveling hundreds of kilometers in the dead of winter, their knowledge of the terrain equaled that of their native allies, and they crack shots with the flintlock muskets.

They were also noted for their cunning and cruelty. In the early years of settlement they often attacked their enemies in the night, sometimes burning their captives in their homes, and spared neither women nor children. Although the cruelty of boarder raids abated considerably in the eighteenth century, the Canadian Militia remained widely respected and feared.

The French authorities made every effort to keep their militia in top fighting condition. After 1669 every Canadian male between the ages of sixteen and sixty capable of bearing arms was subject to conscription and monthly military training. In 1752, when Governor Ange de Menneville Duquesne discovered the militia not up to scratch, he ordered weekly exercises and required each solider to have a rifle, full powder horn and at least twenty bullets. Militiamen wore civilian clothes and were thus spared the expense of buying a uniform. The young men who cut their teeth on the grueling fur trade expeditions into the pays d’en haut clearly had the advantage over their farm based cousins in the militia, but most men in the colony were accustomed to hunting and new the basic of wilderness survival.

Few men, it seems tired to shirk their military responsibilities and many men aspired to the social and political rewards that went with the unpaid position of a militia captain. The old feudal emphasis on military loyalties coupled with the desperate attempt to save their homelands meant that almost all male colonists were willing to serve.

Following the conquest of 1760, British commanders and traditions dulled the Canadian military enthusiasm for military exploits, but during the French regime the Canadian militia was the best fighting force on the continent.

Chartrand Rene’, ‘Death Walks on Snowshoes’, Horizon Canada, pp.260-274

 

[Zartan]

I beg to differ with one contributor on the Linages, Most Counties if not all actually sent Platoons to Company size members to battles in different parts of North America, One such Company came from western Canada.

In the War of 1812? Do you mean the Michigan Fencibles?

 

[Chimo]

I hate to rain on the parade but I must ask this question...How can a country that didn't exist until 1867 (Canada) present Battle Honours to Regiments that no longer exist?

The argument of lineage of Regiments is shaky at best. I have long suffered through explanations of how a light Infantry Battalions Parachute Company has lineage to the 1 st Special Service Force. The definition of lineage would be the key. If a direct and well researched link could be made, that fact would remain that Canada did not exist. 

 

[geo]

I hate to rain on the parade but I must ask this question...How can a country that didn't exist until 1867 (Canada) present Battle Honours to Regiments that no longer exist?

Chimo!
Canada had confederation in 1867 but it certainly existed before that date
The country was a Colony of Great Britain but it was a country nevertheless.

Arguments can be found to link Canada's birthdate with the Treaty of Paris? The dissapearance of New France into British North America (where Canada is specificaly identified) http://www.republiquelibre.org/cousture/TRAITPAR.HTM  OR
Arguments can be found to link Canada's birthdate with July 1st 1776 when the Americans formally split from British North America

 

[3rd Herd]

Grade Nine Social Studies:
Canada- from Jacques Cartier's second voyage. "according to Taignoagny and his brother, bore the euponious name of Kanada(meaning village)
Costain Thomas B. The White and the Gold, The French Regime in Canada

next Canadains is from the term Canadiens, those born in Canada primarly Quebec. Britsh subjects born in "Canada" considered themselves Britsh.

Lastly as to the miltia service and battle honors:
                      HONOR TO THE MILITIAMEN OF 1759

        On the 13th of September 1759, barely an hour after the battle of the
                  Plains of Abraham, on this spot regrouped around a
              bakery, 200 militiamen Canadiens and Acadians confronted,
                      of their own initiative and as a diversion,
                              800 soldiers of Wolfe's army.

  They gave their lives, after a fierce fight, which permitted what was  left  of the French army to  cross the bridge straddling the St.Charles and to reach their camp safely.

      One year later, in 1760, French troops won the battle of Sainte-Foy.

                                          15th of August 1997

 

[Chimo]

Canada was in fact, called several names. However it was not the Dominion of Canada until the confederation came into being 01 July 1867. To which Regiment should we award the Battle Honour of the Plains of Abraham? 

I will withhold any further comments and let you continue your fun. 

 

[Zartan]

I hate to rain on the parade but I must ask this question...How can a country that didn't exist until 1867 (Canada) present Battle Honours to Regiments that no longer exist?

One could consider the "honoured" regiments as perpetuating the forces that fought in the war. Good examples would be of the Royal Newfoundland Fencibles, and the 104th New Brunswick Regiment (which was a regular unit of the British Army), which could easily be represented by the modern Royal Newfoundland Regiment and Royal New Brunswick Regiment. The RNF was raised and representative of the colony of Newfoundland, and disbanded in 1816. The Newfoundland Regiment, raised almost a hundred years later, was raised in and representative of Newfoundland, and it was disbanded again after WW1.

 

[Pearson]

A little humour on the subject.....

Just imagine the reaction to a formal ceremony on the battle sites of our friends at FOX like Ann Coulter, and Bill O'Rielly......

"Canada Celebrates US Defeat!!!"
Ann--- "Canada has made it a a point to rub our noses in a battle that took place almost 200 years ago.... we should roll over and show them who would win a current war"

Bill-- "You're of course right Ann, those ignorant seal eaters to the north, would not be able to get their dog sleds to the border fast enough, to repell our tanks and troops. Let's do it"

George Bush---- "Canada has dogs...??? cool."

Just think of the affect it will have on tourism...US - Canada relations, lets just stick to being polite, quiet neighbours and not make waves for fear of the wrath of Fox News...... good thing "Cross Fire" is off the air or Tucker Carlson and his little bow tie would have a field day with this.
:



Almost worth the

 

[edadian]

Frankie does that mean we should remove the ones from the world wars to appease the Germans, or the Korean war to appease the North Korean and Chinese. It sounds like you only want to honour those who fought along side the US which makes all honours less valuable.

Besides the Pentagon is not going to invade us because Fox news says so, only the Senate can declare war.