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The Three Nations of Canada (2016 version)

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a_majoor

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One potential "Made in Canada" solution is a hybrid airship proposed by "SolarShip": https://www.solarship.com/

Earlier iterations of the site had made claims that the smaller airships could potentially land on airstrips of only 100m length, and the use of aerostatic lift (helium) to take much of the weight of the airframe allowed for much smaller engines to be used. Although the company advertises the idea of coating the upper portion of the airship with solar cells and running electric motors to turn the props, in reality even small diesel engines could be substituted (small turboprops for the largest one with a C-130 sized payload). These would be capable of acting as "bush planes" but at lower cost.

This is one example of potential "order of magnitude" cost savers for dispersed northern and interior communities.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Airship and extreme weather have a bad history and I am not sure that equation has changed as much as they think it has.
 

Kirkhill

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Agreed on the weather sensitivities.

But suppose you weren't anal about time tables and seasonal/monthly deliveries were considered.  A day or a week this way or that may not be the end of the world.

Colonies were built on the basis of most of the ships showing up eventually.  Just-In-Time is pretty much a mug's game when you can see the end of the universe from where you are.

But, by exploiting seasonality you can deliver bulk by water in the summer and overland in the winter (with the right transport - preferably something that exerts less ground pressure than an a walking person).
 

Kirkhill

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These guys may be the goto guys for northern logistics - everything old is new again.

http://www.northwest.ca/annualreviews/2014/overview/nwc-at-a-glance

The Northwest Company.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Chris Pook said:
Agreed on the weather sensitivities.

But suppose you weren't anal about time tables and seasonal/monthly deliveries were considered.  A day or a week this way or that may not be the end of the world.

Colonies were built on the basis of most of the ships showing up eventually.  Just-In-Time is pretty much a mug's game when you can see the end of the universe from where you are.

But, by exploiting seasonality you can deliver bulk by water in the summer and overland in the winter (with the right transport - preferably something that exerts less ground pressure than an a walking person).

People who grew up in the North would do fine, the exiled Southerners not so much.As far as timings go. Snow train have been done and generally fell out of fashion. Ordering up non-perishable bulk goods once a year is fine, but after that your confined to what an aircraft can bring in. We used to sell pop off the Icebreakers at Southerner prices wherever we dropped the hook, even with a cap of 10% above costs, our canteen made a killing as Inuit would load up to the point we had to ration a bit to ensure the communities at the far end of our trip could buy something.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Well we soon have a year round road to Tuk and what we need now is a decent Port there, which would also mean some dredging as well. Next I would push a road from the Invuik-Ft Simpson Hwy to Great bear lake (maybe to Deline?) and then another road from the lake to Coppermine. you can barge across the lake and also supply places like Port Radium.
 

a_majoor

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Colin P said:
People who grew up in the North would do fine, the exiled Southerners not so much.As far as timings go. Snow train have been done and generally fell out of fashion. Ordering up non-perishable bulk goods once a year is fine, but after that your confined to what an aircraft can bring in. We used to sell pop off the Icebreakers at Southerner prices wherever we dropped the hook, even with a cap of 10% above costs, our canteen made a killing as Inuit would load up to the point we had to ration a bit to ensure the communities at the far end of our trip could buy something.

So what is needed is a way to have somewhat more frequent trips (without breaking the bank) but still deliver enough of a load that being a few days late isn't going to casue everyone to starve becasue they ate the last load. A rugged bush plane that is big enough to carry a fully loaded cargo container provides the frequency and required load, but will be pretty expensive to operate. Without roads or rail, it is difficult to move people and supplies around, and relying on water transport requires that you have navigable rivers and shorelines. A difficult problem
 

Kirkhill

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You could also subsidize locally grown produce in greenhouses.  It would be expensive but so is shipping stuff in - and you are talking about communities ranging in size from 100 to 1000 people.

The cost of securing the north paid not in bullets but in full bellies.


 

Colin Parkinson

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Chris Pook said:
You could also subsidize locally grown produce in greenhouses.  It would be expensive but so is shipping stuff in - and you are talking about communities ranging in size from 100 to 1000 people.

The cost of securing the north paid not in bullets but in full bellies.

I fully agree, first I would push building greenhouses near Natural Gas supplies, I did review a project near Fort St John that was going to generate power from NG and the waste heat was going into greenhouses to grow vegs and fruit. These project while not turning a profit for quite awhile can provide jobs, food, experience, infrastructure, all which will make the North more self-sustaining. The skills people learn make it easier for them to exploit other opportunities.
 

Colin Parkinson

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in the vein we are talking about http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/taltson-hydro-expansion-saskatchewan-1.3487488
 

Kirkhill

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I prefer your natural gas solution:

Gas = Heat + Light + Carbon Dioxide =

Todd%20McPhail%20Hydroponic%20Tomato%20Agra%20Tech%20Solar%20Light.jpg


Hydro = Heat + Light .................................................


Say, do you think some of that Carbon Dioxide stuff would do any good for wheat and trees?


For the majority of greenhouse crops, net photosynthesis increases as CO2 levels increase from 340–1,000 ppm (parts per million). Most crops show that for any given level of photosynthetically active radiation (PAR), increasing the CO2 level to 1,000 ppm will increase the photosynthesis by about 50% over ambient CO2 levels. For some crops the economics may not warrant supplementing to 1,000 ppm CO2 at low light levels. For others such as tulips, and Easter lilies, no response has been observed.

Carbon dioxide enters into the plant through the stomatal openings by the process of diffusion. Stomata are specialized cells located mainly on the underside of the leaves in the epidermal layer. The cells open and close allowing gas exchange to occur. The concentration of CO2 outside the leaf strongly influences the rate of CO2 uptake by the plant. The higher the CO2 concentration outside the leaf, the greater the uptake of CO2 by the plant. Light levels, leaf and ambient air temperatures, relative humidity, water stress and the CO2 and oxygen (O2) concentration in the air and the leaf, are many of the key factors that determine the opening and closing of the stomata.

Ambient CO2 level in outside air is about 340 ppm by volume. All plants grow well at this level but as CO2 levels are raised by 1,000 ppm photosynthesis increases proportionately resulting in more sugars and carbohydrates available for plant growth. Any actively growing crop in a tightly clad greenhouse with little or no ventilation can readily reduce the CO2 level during the day to as low as 200 ppm. The decrease in photosynthesis when CO2 level drops from 340 ppm to 200 ppm is similar to the increase when the CO2 levels are raised from 340 to about 1,300 ppm (Figure 1). As a rule of thumb, a drop in carbon dioxide levels below ambient has a stronger effect than supplementation above ambient.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/00-077.htm
 

a_majoor

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Getting about with bush planes will mean a new generation of aircraft. Of course, it should be equally possible to build "old" aircraft with modern materials and manufacturing technologies to make them lighter and cheaper to operate. Seaplanes might also be coinsidered, since we do have a lot of water and waterways that can be exploited without having to build lots of infrastructure:
 

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foresterab

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Colin P said:
I fully agree, first I would push building greenhouses near Natural Gas supplies, I did review a project near Fort St John that was going to generate power from NG and the waste heat was going into greenhouses to grow vegs and fruit. These project while not turning a profit for quite awhile can provide jobs, food, experience, infrastructure, all which will make the North more self-sustaining. The skills people learn make it easier for them to exploit other opportunities.

Many of the southern Yukon and NWT communities used to have large gardens farming primarily root crops (potatoes/carrots etc.) with the years crop stored in root cellars.  With changes to house designs the root cellars aren't there any more making it tough to store food and increasing reliance upon the supermarkets.

In parts of Scandinavia small co-generation plants are run usually off of wood biomass.  While much of the northern forest lands are not considered appropriate for sawlogs you could harvest trees for power near the community with the following benefits:
1) a couple of jobs in the harvesting/log haul side of things. 
2) a skilled job(s) with the power plant keeping operations going.  This could also be tied to water treatment plants with a power engineer type control officer.
3) local planning and input into resource management on the harvesting = better background when dealing with resource development nearby.  Land reclamation experience (reforestation/clean-up etc.).
4) plants can be developed for multiple fuel feeds.  Many European plants have up to 4 feeds for Natural Gas/Oil/Wood Pellets/Coal with the ability to mix and match depending upon local supply and cost.
-One concern I've heard with alternative energy sources in the north is reliability.  This allows for a tank of fuel oil to be present as a back up in case needed.
-key maintenance work is specialized and will most likely require specialist teams coming in annually/biannually but it's a start on skilled work up north.
5) because plants can be built where the people are in many cases minimal power infrastructure is required.  Minimal transmission power loss due to shipping power long distances = smaller plants needed

While power plants are an expensive (i.e. need subsidies to work) greenhouses are simpler and there have been some attempts at trying to increase the amount of food being grown often through agencies such as food banks.  These to my mind are high reward, low risk investments in the north as a community greenhouse, growing the crops the local residents want, has immense value in health, self esteem, and economic savings.  Just need the investment money to set them up in the first place.


 

SeaKingTacco

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If the Liberals were to throw money at greenhouses in northern communities, that is one infrastructure project that I could get behind.
 

George Wallace

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SeaKingTacco said:
If the Liberals were to throw money at greenhouses in northern communities, that is one infrastructure project that I could get behind.

Indeed; and a very sensible endeavor should it be brought into fruition.
 

a_majoor

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How many Liberal voters live up there? That will be the metric which that idea lives or dies on.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Thucydides said:
Getting about with bush planes will mean a new generation of aircraft. Of course, it should be equally possible to build "old" aircraft with modern materials and manufacturing technologies to make them lighter and cheaper to operate. Seaplanes might also be coinsidered, since we do have a lot of water and waterways that can be exploited without having to build lots of infrastructure:

There is a healthy industry of building rather newish planes around old data plates. Helping Viking recreate a new Beaver and Single Otter, also finding a way to bring the price of a pair of floats down would help, tax credits for having floats would help as well. I love flying boats, but they don't seem to get much use these days.
 

my72jeep

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SeaKingTacco said:
If the Liberals were to throw money at greenhouses in northern communities, that is one infrastructure project that I could get behind.
Sorry but if the Liberals put green houses anywhere do you realy thing they would be for growing food?
 
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