The Shaving Superthread- All You Want and More....

[Pusser]

This is the single most idiotic statement I have ever seen on this forum, and I find myself having to wade into the recruiting threads quite often.

Just because you achieved the seal under training conditions doesn't mean a damned thing. And arguing your point based on tradition or what you have done for 25 years, rather than best practice is both infantile and stupid.

You're an educated man, and a beard trips you up? The curb ain't that high.

If mine is the most idiotic statement you've seen on this forum, then you need to get out more. ;D

My point has nothing to do with tradition.  I just like wearing a beard and I can say without one word of a lie that it has never caused me an issue.  And yes, I've been in real fires.  If this really is "best practice," then prove it.  Otherwise, it's an unneccessary restriction.  Consider the following:

1) What are we doing with people who fail fit tests while clean-shaven?  Do we kick them out?  Do we make them get implants?  The answer to both these questions is of course, no.  That being the case, how can we put a restriction on something that might affect someone's performance when we place no such restriction on others whose performance is definitely affected?

2) There is an argument to be made that a soft full beard, which will fold and compress under the seal fo the mask, will actually allow a better seal than a few hours worth of stubble, which will act like a tent pole and hold the rubber off the face.

3)  The fit-testing gurus claim that you cannot achieve a seal with a beard, but how would they know, considering that they specifically prohibit you from doing their fit test with a beard?  To put it simply, if I fail a fit test with a beard, then I will happily shave it off, but no one has yet let me to that.  The current situation is a lot like saying someone has to successfully complete the BFT before being allowed to attempt the Expres Test.

Now people may get upset with what I'm saying, but it is my opinion and I'm allowed to have one of those.  No one can live inside someone else's mask, be it a gas mask, chemox set, Scott pack or full chemical suit (and I've used all of these), so getting angry because you don't agree with another person's assessment of the situation is pointless.  In my view, we should test people as they are and if they pass, fine.  If not, then we can look at what needs to be changed.

 

[dangerboy]

Nonsense.  I haven't shaved regularly for 25 years and I've spent a good chunk of that time at sea.  This BS about having to shave while posted to ships is recent and unneccessary in my view.  Never once in the last 25 years have I ever had problems achieving a seal on a chemox set or a gas mask (just did the gas hut last month).  This whole anti-beard hysteria is probably being pushed by a bunch of fit-testing fanatics who can't grow one!  But I digress...

Of course one thing to remember with regards to the Gas Hut and the reason you are allowed to have a beard in the hut is CS is a particulate training agent and not a molecular sized lethal agent.

 

[TN2IC]

This is why I'm saying laser hair removal troops! Gssh...

 

[Pusser]

Of course one thing to remember with regards to the Gas Hut and the reason you are allowed to have a beard in the hut is CS is a particulate training agent and not a molecular sized lethal agent.

Fair enough.  If we go charging off to Syria (who have threatened to use chemical and/or biological weapons against "foreign" invaders) in the near future, I will then re-think my approach.  Everything is situation-dependent. 

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Thank You Obedientiazelum, I needed a chuckle this morning.


Wait!  You're serious?

Then what about a Bra allowance for women?  Under the regs, they are required to wear one under their DEU shirt - and bras are expansive (at least the fancy ones I buy for my wife once a year at Christmas as a gift to myself are, but I digress).

Anyhow, if you don't want to spend money on shaving, why don't you ask for a transfer to the Navy?

Opppps there is a Bra allowance

 

[Scott]

You're trying to preach to someone who is both an emergency responder and a competent fit tester, I have also fought more than a few fires. I figured I should make you aware of that before you waste any more of your time arguing something so simple. However, in the interest of trying to lead the blind, I will answer:

1) What are we doing with people who fail fit tests while clean-shaven?  Do we kick them out?  Do we make them get implants?  The answer to both these questions is of course, no.  That being the case, how can we put a restriction on something that might affect someone's performance when we place no such restriction on others whose performance is definitely affected?

If it is a requirement of your job to wear respiratory protective equipment then you should be face fit tested on such. If you fail to achieve the face fit test due to facial shape, scarring, absence of dentures during the test, etc. then you should be supplied with a respirator that fits or removed from the job that requires you to wear the respirator. This doesn't seem like rocket appliances to me, Ricky.

In ten years of carrying out face fit tests I have had TWO people fail, and my numbers for total subjects run through must be over 5,000 by now. One was an Oriental female (who we then procured an extra small mask for) the other was a dude who just had new dentures fitted and thought he wouldn't wear them for the test because he didn't wear them while working - he changed that and was fine.

My point is that this is a rare thing to have happen. I have only even heard about it from colleagues maybe twice more - so what does that tell you? The kit is designed to be as generic as possible. There is also never a guarantee which is why they print those big disclaimers on the kit. That said, being clean shaven gives you the best chance.

So what's your point?

2) There is an argument to be made that a soft full beard, which will fold and compress under the seal fo the mask, will actually allow a better seal than a few hours worth of stubble, which will act like a tent pole and hold the rubber off the face.

There is no argument. Clean shaven means clean shaven. A few hours of stubble hardly compares to a full beard. You're grasping at straws.

3)  The fit-testing gurus claim that you cannot achieve a seal with a beard, but how would they know, considering that they specifically prohibit you from doing their fit test with a beard?  To put it simply, if I fail a fit test with a beard, then I will happily shave it off, but no one has yet let me to that.  The current situation is a lot like saying someone has to successfully complete the BFT before being allowed to attemp the Expres Test.

If I were to attempt to fit test you with a beard then I would be breaking the law. I suppose they have done such testing under laboratory conditions before they made the decision to impact on your personal sense of fashion.

Clean shaven does not change. It's clean. If I test you with the beard then who is to say that the next week you don't have more of a scruff going which would then negate the results of the previous test, no? This is a reason why fit tests are mandated at two years and recommended every year or every time there is a change to the face (weight gain, scarring, falsies, etc)

Now people may get upset with what I'm saying, but it is my opinion and I'm allowed to have one of those.  No one can live inside someone else's mask, be it a gas mask, chemox set, Scott pack or full chemical suit (and I've used all of these), so getting angry because you don't agree with another person's assessment of the situation is pointless.  In my view, we should test people as they are and if they pass, fine.  If not, then we can look at what needs to be changed.

Your opinion based on an emotional response - that YOU do not want to shave *stomp, stomp, stomp* This worked for YOU before *stomp, stomp, stomp* Yeah, I get it. It's an antiquated view and one that does not give me any warm and fuzzes about your ability to pick a battle. As someone said in the socks in the mess thread: is this the hill you'd choose to die on?

What upsets me is when anyone who could be put into a leadership position displays such an ignorant attitude towards best practices and current standards for safety. It also pisses me off, as one of those guys who might have to drag a bearded carcass out of danger when a face seal fails, because I will have to put myself at risk if said bearded clown goes down.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

If mine is the most idiotic statement you've seen on this forum, then you need to get out more. ;D

My point has nothing to do with tradition.  I just like wearing a beard and I can say without one word of a lie that it has never caused me an issue.  And yes, I've been in real fires.  If this really is "best practice," then prove it.  Otherwise, it's an unneccessary restriction.  Consider the following:

1) What are we doing with people who fail fit tests while clean-shaven?  Do we kick them out?  Do we make them get implants?  The answer to both these questions is of course, no.  That being the case, how can we put a restriction on something that might affect someone's performance when we place no such restriction on others whose performance is definitely affected?

2) There is an argument to be made that a soft full beard, which will fold and compress under the seal fo the mask, will actually allow a better seal than a few hours worth of stubble, which will act like a tent pole and hold the rubber off the face.

3)  The fit-testing gurus claim that you cannot achieve a seal with a beard, but how would they know, considering that they specifically prohibit you from doing their fit test with a beard?  To put it simply, if I fail a fit test with a beard, then I will happily shave it off, but no one has yet let me to that.  The current situation is a lot like saying someone has to successfully complete the BFT before being allowed to attempt the Expres Test.

Now people may get upset with what I'm saying, but it is my opinion and I'm allowed to have one of those.  No one can live inside someone else's mask, be it a gas mask, chemox set, Scott pack or full chemical suit (and I've used all of these), so getting angry because you don't agree with another person's assessment of the situation is pointless.  In my view, we should test people as they are and if they pass, fine.  If not, then we can look at what needs to be changed.

Pusser frankly theres no need to prove it.  The CF has adopted the NFPA standards for SCBA's (the new breathing kit) Firefighters used to have beards to and draw their breathing air from a little pocket around the nozzle caused by the pressure of water.  Guess what firefighters don't do it anymore, neither do we. I respect your privilege and desire to wear a beard, just don't put my rear on the line when your kit fails to function properly

 

[Pusser]

You're trying to preach to someone who is both an emergency responder and a competent fit tester, I have also fought more than a few fires. I figured I should make you aware of that before you waste any more of your time arguing something so simple. However, in the interest of trying to lead the blind, I will answer:

If it is a requirement of your job to wear respiratory protective equipment then you should be face fit tested on such. If you fail to achieve the face fit test due to facial shape, scarring, absence of dentures during the test, etc. then you should be supplied with a respirator that fits or removed from the job that requires you to wear the respirator. This doesn't seem like rocket appliances to me, Ricky.

In ten years of carrying out face fit tests I have had TWO people fail, and my numbers for total subjects run through must be over 5,000 by now. One was an Oriental female (who we then procured an extra small mask for) the other was a dude who just had new dentures fitted and thought he wouldn't wear them for the test because he didn't wear them while working - he changed that and was fine.

My point is that this is a rare thing to have happen. I have only even heard about it from colleagues maybe twice more - so what does that tell you? The kit is designed to be as generic as possible. There is also never a guarantee which is why they print those big disclaimers on the kit. That said, being clean shaven gives you the best chance.

So what's your point?

There is no argument. Clean shaven means clean shaven. A few hours of stubble hardly compares to a full beard. You're grasping at straws.

If I were to attempt to fit test you with a beard then I would be breaking the law. I suppose they have done such testing under laboratory conditions before they made the decision to impact on your personal sense of fashion.

Clean shaven does not change. It's clean. If I test you with the beard then who is to say that the next week you don't have more of a scruff going which would then negate the results of the previous test, no? This is a reason why fit tests are mandated at two years and recommended every year or every time there is a change to the face (weight gain, scarring, falsies, etc)

Your opinion based on an emotional response - that YOU do not want to shave *stomp, stomp, stomp* This worked for YOU before *stomp, stomp, stomp* Yeah, I get it. It's an antiquated view and one that does not give me any warm and fuzzes about your ability to pick a battle. As someone said in the socks in the mess thread: is this the hill you'd choose to die on?

What upsets me is when anyone who could be put into a leadership position displays such an ignorant attitude towards best practices and current standards for safety. It also pisses me off, as one of those guys who might have to drag a bearded carcass out of danger when a face seal fails, because I will have to put myself at risk if said bearded clown goes down.

I'm not trying to preach to anyone and I don't question your competence as a fit-tester.  All I have is my own experience to draw on.  It seems to me that you are the one who is getting emotional about this.  I'm not sitting here stomping my little feet or holding my breath until I turn blue.  I thought I was simply taking part in an academic discussion.  If I'm required to shave due to some policy that I disagree with, then I still will do so and without public complaint.  In fact, the last time I was at the DC school for fire-refresher training, I did exactly that.  I also fully recognize my leadership responsibilities here.  There is a difference between voicing an opinion on an internet forum and a public statement.  I have found myself enforcing policies numerous times over the years that I actually disagreed with, but did it anyway for the greater good of maintaining discipline.  However, that doesn't mean I couldn't disagree privately or bring it up with the chain of command during the decision making process.  The essence of leadership is that I am allowed to have an opinion and I am allowed and in fact, expected to make recommendations to my superiors for consideration.  Once the decision is made, regardless of whether I agree with it, I then enforce it as if it was my own.

I apologize if my opinion upsets you, but can you honestly say that you have agreed with every "best practice" or "current safety standard" over the years?  How many times have they changed?  Do you not think sometimes that they're a little over the top?  If we never question things, we never improve.  As for hauling my bearded carcass out of a fire?  I promise to do everything I can to ensure that doesn't happen.  Besides, my sea-going days are likely done. 

As for the socks in the mess thread, you obviously missed what I was getting at.  I really couldn't care less about socks in the mess.  My concern was that there was a junior NCO who was abusing his authority enforcing a policy of his own creation.  I wasn't taking on the dress regulations.  I was addressing an issue of poor leadership and yes, that is a hill I would be willing to die on.

Now, in an attempt to re-rail this, I disagree with the concept of the CF paying an allowance for razors, in spite of the fact that I might actually have to use one should I get deployed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Fair enough.  If we go charging off to Syria (who have threatened to use chemical and/or biological weapons against "foreign" invaders) in the near future, I will then re-think my approach.  Everything is situation-dependent.

But then again, maybe we should grow beards to fit in with the locals?

 

[GAP]

But then again, maybe we should grow beards to fit in with the locals?

But then how would you know who to shoot? ......  ;D

 

[dogger1936]

But then again, maybe we should grow beards to fit in with the locals?

Absolutely not. People in that region respect our clean shaven faces and boot bands more than the security we can provide. Thats what our Battle Group RSM figured anyway.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But then again, maybe we should grow beards to fit in with the locals?

Or let the mighty bearded ones remain unshaven, tempt fate, expire from exposure through a bad seal and relieve the rest of us from the incessant 'button and bows' and 'I'm entitled' diatribes every week.  :

 

[Scott]

I'm not trying to preach to anyone and I don't question your competence as a fit-tester.  All I have is my own experience to draw on.  It seems to me that you are the one who is getting emotional about this.  I'm not sitting here stomping my little feet or holding my breath until I turn blue.  I thought I was simply taking part in an academic discussion.  If I'm required to shave due to some policy that I disagree with, then I still will do so and without public complaint.  In fact, the last time I was at the DC school for fire-refresher training, I did exactly that.  I also fully recognize my leadership responsibilities here.  There is a difference between voicing an opinion on an internet forum and a public statement.  I have found myself enforcing policies numerous times over the years that I actually disagreed with, but did it anyway for the greater good of maintaining discipline.  However, that doesn't mean I couldn't disagree privately or bring it up with the chain of command during the decision making process.  The essence of leadership is that I am allowed to have an opinion and I am allowed and in fact, expected to make recommendations to my superiors for consideration.  Once the decision is made, regardless of whether I agree with it, I then enforce it as if it was my own.

I apologize if my opinion upsets you, but can you honestly say that you have agreed with every "best practice" or "current safety standard" over the years?  How many times have they changed?  Do you not think sometimes that they're a little over the top?  If we never question things, we never improve.  As for hauling my bearded carcass out of a fire?  I promise to do everything I can to ensure that doesn't happen.  Besides, my sea-going days are likely done. 

As for the socks in the mess thread, you obviously missed what I was getting at.  I really couldn't care less about socks in the mess.  My concern was that there was a junior NCO who was abusing his authority enforcing a policy of his own creation.  I wasn't taking on the dress regulations.  I was addressing an issue of poor leadership and yes, that is a hill I would be willing to die on.

Now, in an attempt to re-rail this, I disagree with the concept of the CF paying an allowance for razors, in spite of the fact that I might actually have to use one should I get deployed.

You're STILL going?

Buds, it's a beard. I am sure yours is divine and totally faaaaaabulous. If you have to shave it then you have my sympathies, but it will grow back.

 

[Scott]

Or let the mighty bearded ones remain unshaven, tempt fate, expire from exposure through a bad seal and relieve the rest of us from the incessant 'button and bows' and 'I'm entitled' diatribes every week.  :

Indeed. It's just too bad that good men might have to risk their lives in order to mail order the body home.

Here lies XXX
Died due to increased fashion consciousness and an unwavering sense of tradition in the face of common sense.

That'll look great on a headstone.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Absolutely not. People in that region respect our clean shaven faces and boot bands more than the security we can provide. Thats what our Battle Group RSM figured anyway.

Is that a pistol you're wearing? Take that off! That's a status symbol not something you're going to actually use for self defense.

 

[dogger1936]

Is that a pistol you're wearing? Take that off! That's a status symbol not something you're going to actually use for self defense.

Not with me! My no hook driver had one; I would throw water bottles out for him to practice shooting from his compartment.

 

[OldSolduer]

This is why I'm saying laser hair removal troops! Gssh...

While we're at it can we develop an eye, or eyes like cats, or eagles, or whatever that can see in the dark, then have it transplanted in a recruit's head?

 

[aesop081]

then have it transplanted in a recruit's head?

These days, the only thing i would like to see transplanted in many recruit's heads is a brain. I would settle for just that.

 

[dogger1936]

These days, the only thing i would like to see transplanted in many recruit's heads is a brain. I would settle for just that.

Or my fist.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Or my fist.

Hey, HEY! That might be someone's son or daughter your talking about there. Let's keep it jovial.