The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread

[jollyjacktar]

This is the flag that those men we are honouring at Vimy fought and all too often died serving under.  It is fitting that a place be made for it on that place.  It was the flag that my Grandfather and Great Uncle who died at Vimy knew.  My Father and Uncles also served and died under this flag a generation later. 
True, it is not the present flag representing our Canada of today, the flag that I serve under is the Maple Leaf.  So what.  There is room for both, it is right and fitting that we make connection between our world and theirs.  Is that not the whole idea behind this exercise?  To remember and honour these men?  Sorry, but I don't feel threatened by this mark of respect.  I applaud it.

 

[bannerman]

Minister Jason Kenney launched a set of posters of Historic Flags of Canada at an Ontario school recently. It was written up in Le Droit newspaper. There is a poster of all the different Canada Red Ensigns up to 1957/65. They are all available free of charge from Heritage Canada at:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

 

[uptheglens]

There are so many versions of the Red Ensign that it is difficult to tell which is valid at which time.

This appears to be the 1901 version:

The version we all know came into service in 1921/22.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ensign is here:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html

Here's another variation on the 1901 version (I agree that until 1922, the history of the Red Ensign in Canada is a very tortured history). It has 7 provinces (the main difference is that British Columbia's emblem is a lion, a laurel, and "BC" on it) and instead of two branches of maple leaves, the left side is a branch of maple leaves, and the right side is a branch of oak leaves and acorns. Bought this at a flea market about 15 years ago, and its dimensions are roughly 10' long and 6' tall.

 

[bannerman]

The poster from Heritage Canada features a 1907 flag with a shield bearing the arms of all 9 provinces (Newfoundland had its own distinctive Red and Blue Ensigns).

 

[bannerman]

gord jenkins is wrong that the flag on the podium in the 1936 dedication ceremony at Vimy was a Union Jack. This photo shows clearly that it was a large post-1922 Canadian Red Ensign.

 

[RangerRay]

WARNING: THREAD HIJACK!

FYI, the device for BC in Uptheglens Red Ensign was the pre-Confederation emblem for the Crown Colony of British Columbia.  It is the Royal Crest with "B" and "C" on either side.  It was used in a Blue Ensign for the Colony and Province, and Union Jack for the governor/lieutenant governor, until the creation of a proper shield in 1906.

Although we had no authorisation from the Sovereign to use the Royal Crest, it has been used in our heraldry ever since.  When we were granted official supporters and crest in 1987, the Royal Crest was granted for the first time to another sovereign entity, with a differentiating mark (garland of dogwoods around the lion's neck).

<a href="http://www.protocol.gov.bc.ca/protocol/prgs/symbols/coat_of_arms.htm">The Coat of Arms of British Columbia: A Brief History </a>

END OF HIJACK

 

[gordjenkins]

Reference to 'hijack"- very interesting

Actually this is called "Crest and Crown"

The crest is based on the Royal Crest of England but differenced in Canada -except for this example - by the addition of a maple leaf, and appears on the Governor General's blue flag denoting that the Governor General is a representative of the Sovereign.

It consists of a crowned gold lion standing on a twisted wreath of red and white silk and holding a maple leaf in its right paw. Above the crest is St Edward's Crown, the style preferred by the Queen. (See the article on the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom for a discussion of different styles of crown historically used in the Commonwealth.)

The 1921 design was a Tudor crown, and the style was modernized to its current form in 1957 by the Canadian government, although the Queen had indicated her preference in May 1952, shortly after ascending the throne in February 1952.

[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Canada#Armorial_evolution

 

[Yeoman]

Minister Jason Kenney launched a set of posters of Historic Flags of Canada at an Ontario school recently. It was written up in Le Droit newspaper. There is a poster of all the different Canada Red Ensigns up to 1957/65. They are all available free of charge from Heritage Canada at:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

whoa, now that's nifty stuff right there. I think I shall send them an e-mail to get a Canadian Red Ensign Flags poster then.
I've always wanted to get the 1097 Flag as a tattoo, but knowing fully well it would turn out terrible due to the amount of details necessary.
*end hijack*

 

[gordjenkins]

Gord jenkins is wrong that the flag on the podium in the 1936 dedication ceremony at Vimy was a Union Jack. This photo shows clearly that it was a large post-1922 Canadian Red Ensign.
snip

I am ALMOST sorry I started this post on Red Ensigns 2000 plus entries ago:>)

My initial post was two years ago - and I still stand by it - (except for a droopy Red Ensign which no one in the vast audience can see !

Why all this hand wringing about Red Ensigns and Vimy.

First of all no Canadian flags were carried during the Vimy battle
or on the battlefield. Even Regimental Colours were not carried - - the only
exception being the PPCLI  but I suspect the colours were left back at RHQ!
Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"
of which I have a copy
-not a Red Ensign to be seen!

The Union Jack was on the Podium at Vimy /at the parade in London
and other smaller ceremonies in France at the dedication  in 1936

So why the fuss of having Red Ensign at current memorial service on April 9th this year?

In the 61 pages of the "Vimy Pilgrimage" December 1936 Canadian Geographic Journal Vol xiii No *8  Vimy Pilgrimage
or
136 pages of therCanadian Legion of the (then) British Empire League
"The Vimy Pilgrimage" July 1938
except for this "droopy" example any Red Ensigns!!

 

[Proud_Newfoundlander]

I have to agree with the inclusion of the old ensign. That is the flag canadians fought and died under in 1917, not the official maple leafs flag. I also believe there was a red ensign present at the battle of Vimy Ridge

 

[bannerman]

Pictures speak so much louder than words -- especially erroneous words. And many, many words have been expended trying to prove that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in the First World War.

The most notable was from the mouth of former PM Lester Pearson, who twice misled the House of Commons in the 1964 flag debate when he said that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in France during the First World War.

Apart from misinformation, the other tactic used by the Anti-Red Ensign Brigade is to abuse or demean the Red Ensign. For example, Gord Jenkins saying in his last post that the Red Ensign on the podium at Vimy in 1936 is "droopy." In fact it is obvious that it is attached to the railing on the podium. The crowd below can see clearly the top half is a Union Jack, the bottom half is bright red - the distinctive Canadian flag that everyone could recognize at the time.

Here is an artist's view of the victory parade in Paris in 1918. Note the prominent Canadian Red Ensign that is being carried by our victorious troops. Art speaking truth to denial.

 

[Proud_Newfoundlander]

Pictures speak so much louder than words -- especially erroneous words. And many, many words have been expended trying to prove that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in the First World War.

The most notable was from the mouth of former PM Lester Pearson, who twice misled the House of Commons in the 1964 flag debate when he said that the Red Ensign was "not seen" in France during the First World War.

Apart from misinformation, the other tactic used by the Anti-Red Ensign Brigade is to abuse or demean the Red Ensign. For example, Gord Jenkins saying in his last post that the Red Ensign on the podium at Vimy in 1936 is "droopy." In fact it is obvious that it is attached to the railing on the podium. The crowd below can see clearly the top half is a Union Jack, the bottom half is bright red - the distinctive Canadian flag that everyone could recognize at the time.

Here is an artist's view of the victory parade in Paris in 1918. Note the prominent Canadian Red Ensign that is being carried by our victorious troops. Art speaking truth to denial.

Very Nice Bannerman

 

[gordjenkins]

artists can be fanciful cant they
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

as for the 'Vimy so called flag'
The Red Ensign was presented to this Museum in 1918 to commemorate the Canadian achievement at Vimy Ridge by Lieutenant Colonel Lorn Paulet Owen Tudor of the Saskatchewan Regiment, who commanded the 5th Canadian Infantry Battalion from 29 June 1917 to 8 March 1918.
David Penn
Keeper, Exhibits & Firearms
Imperial War Museum

Canadian red ensign in Imperial War Museum (Canada)

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca_wwimu.html


Vimy exhibit]
courtesy Imperial War Museum through Gordon Thompson

[Vimy flag]
contributed by David Penn through Gordon Thompson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a the quote by Former Prime Minister, Lester Pearson in "Canada's Flag - A Search for an Identity" , it is noted:: "The Red Ensign, though many of my correspondents do not seem to appreciate this, was not used during World War I in anyway, shape or form for the Canadian forces".

I have some concerns about this statement. The photo above is the flag donated to the Imperial War Museum in 1918 to commemorate the Battle of Vimy Ridge along with back-up information. The flag is a Red Ensign. Also I have seen photographs in Canadian history books covering WW1 displaying the Red Ensign with Canadian Forces. I also recently purchased a Canadian flag from a collection from an American serviceman who served with the Canadian Forces in WWI. It also is a four shield Canadian Flag. I believe this refutes the above statement and displays that the Red Ensign was used by Canadian Forces (primarily the Army) in WWI.

I believe that Lester Pearson served in the Royal Flying Corp which was entirely British, since the RCAF was not formed until 1924. The only distinctive Canadian forces that served overseas in WWI was the Army. I also believe the former Prime Minister's statement was somewhat politicized due the ongoing debate at that time versus those who wanted the new flag and those, including the Canadian Legion, who wanted to retain the Red Ensign.

The Red Ensign has served this country well both in an official and un-official capacity. For those of us born under it, we mourned its passing. The new Maple Leaf flag has served us well since 1965, but I believe the old Red Ensign deserves it fair shake for the period of time it represented this country.
Gordon Thompson,

Canadian red ensign in Imperial War Museum (Canada)

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca_wwimu.html

 

[bannerman]

Showing the flag on the Western Front:

 

[bannerman]

Showing the flag on the Western Front. "A new concept of Canadian nationality is born."

This and other pics can be viewed at http://bannerman2.googlepages.com/home

 

[bannerman]

Sir Arthur Currie unveils a monument to the Canadian Field Artillery at Vimy in 1918.

showing the Canadian Flag of that time, bearing a shield with the arms of the nine provinces.

For better detail, see the Canadian Heritage website, which offers a poster called the "Evolution of the Canadian Red Ensign" at http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

 

[bannerman]

Available from the Department of Canadian Heritage at http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

Evolution of the Canadian Red Ensign (1870-1965)

Drapeaux du régime français (1534-1760)

 

[Yrys]

I suddendly feel that my history course was lacking, never heard of  "Drapeaux du régime français (1534-1760)".
And I'm pretty sure to be young enough to have had one that was rewrite by the P.Q. ...

 

[big_castor]

I suddendly feel that my history course was lacking, never heard of  "Drapeaux du régime français (1534-1760)".
And I'm pretty sure to be young enough to have had one that was rewrite by the P.Q. ...

Covering 4000 years of history in 180 days of school leaves little time for flags.

 

[Yrys]

Covering 4000 years of history in 180 days of school leaves little time for flags.

I had an history course for the 4000 years in secondary 2, but my secondary 4 was on "history of Canada" and we saw
the Québec and Canadian flags (how they came into being), and the hymn of Canada, etc.

digression : I had a professor of economic in my  secondary 4 history course, and a professor of history in my secondary 5 economic course.
                One teacher said that it was because of "ancienneté" (lenght of service, seniority) .