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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

lenaitch

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But there probably would be an F-35 solo demo plane, like what we have now with the CF-18.

I am assuming that a future CF-35 demo flight won't have the special paint and graphics that changes every year.
Nope. The 22 is a ballet with some Zoom.
I saw the demo team in Chile several year ago. 180 turns on a dime, near hover pivots and then turn 90 to the sky hit burner and disappear upwards.

It was the first time I had ever been in total awe at an aircraft capability. It seemed unreal.

Although I have not seen one, no doubt it is an impressive airframe, but ballet typically is a troupe, so I prefer multiple aircraft in close formation to demonstrate flying skills.


*****

I know little of the process, but doesn't being a member of the 'partnership' mean that we pay the current set price/aircraft? Also, I read somewhere that being a member of the partnership precluded us from negotiating additional industrial offsets. If either/both of these are true, what in the world would 'final negotiations' that will apparently take a minimum of seven months entail? I can't image a whole lot of 'Canadianization' - which we love to do - or a ton of options, beyond perhaps the drag chute that was developed for Norway. There was some talk about a probe for the A model but don't know if that went anywhere.
 

dapaterson

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Negotiations could include sequencing of deliveries, ancillary equipment, training slots, permanently posting pilots as instructors to training establishments... (Note that this is my conjecture, I haven't seen any specifics).

Lots of small details that will have to be ironed out.
 

Underway

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Except that from an operations point of view, we’re a decade behind our allies. We have 0 experience in employing 5th Gen platforms.
Hence my lost opportunity cost comment. One hand giveth (unintentionally) and the other taketh away (intentionally).

There are costs that are not maintenance/maturity related and understand there is a lot of work and costs to catch up.

Same situation with a lot of our equipment/experience. I expect the various RPAS programs will have the same sort of gap in usage problems.
 

SupersonicMax

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I can't image a whole lot of 'Canadianization' - which we love to do - or a ton of options, beyond perhaps the drag chute that was developed for Norway. There was some talk about a probe for the A model but don't know if that went anywhere.
There is no point in getting a probe-equipped aircraft. The A330 will be fitted with both refueling systems and US tankers used for NORAD can either be fitted with a drogue OR a boom (some can be dual use but they are few and far between), not both, which really is a problem when conducting NORAD operations with the US. We need almost twice as many tankers…
 

Quirky

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What about the loss of X% of talent - in terms of pilots/ground crew - who made the decision to leave over the last decade, who might have stayed, because they didn't see the future containing us flying the F-35?

I never heard of technicians leaving because the gov didn't commit to the F-35. Fighter base location out in the sticks, along with all the issues surrounding it and discussed ad nauseum, was always a contributing factor. No new fighter will solve the retention issue, it might help, but there are bigger fish to fry.
 

KevinB

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I am assuming that a future CF-35 demo flight won't have the special paint and graphics that changes every year.


Although I have not seen one, no doubt it is an impressive airframe, but ballet typically is a troupe, so I prefer multiple aircraft in close formation to demonstrate flying skills.
The F-22 demo team flew 6 AC when I saw it, blew anything I have seen from the Snowbirds, Thunderbirds, or Blue Angles away - the ability for the aircraft to almost hover in one spot - then then do acrobatics including pivot turns while wing to wing is insane.

Seeing a lot of other AC do things makes me really sad we didn't make at least double the amount of F-22's, F/A-XX NGASF has some pretty big shoes to fill when it comes on line.
 

Quirky

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The F-22 demo team flew 6 AC when I saw it..... then then do acrobatics including pivot turns while wing to wing is insane.

6 F-22s in formation at an air display? I didn't know that was even a thing.
 

KevinB

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6 F-22s in formation at an air display? I didn't know that was even a thing.
Sometimes the USAF likes to brag /power project. It was a Military show in Chile. The whole inventory of craft came down. Thunderbirds demo was right after. People actually ignored most of it.
 

Good2Golf

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Sometimes the USAF likes to brag /power project. It was a Military show in Chile. The whole inventory of craft came down. Thunderbirds demo was right after. People actually ignored most of it.
Ahhhhh….FIDAE. Good times, and a great show!
 

Eye In The Sky

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LRP trip planners be like…

Shark Tank Smile GIF by ABC Network
 

MarkOttawa

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RCAF F-35A contract, first delivery, look like slipping right as, e.g., CAE demands a cut:

F-35 Decision Unleashes Demands For More Spending In Canada

A fighter aircraft selection in March by the Canadian government has some aerospace suppliers ramping up for a long-deferred financial windfall, while others are lobbying Ottawa to protect training and depot maintenance capabilities that may otherwise disappear.
  • Contract negotiations may stretch into 2023
  • First F-35 deliveries could slip one year to 2026
The selection of the Lockheed Martin F-35A to replace a fleet of Boeing CF-18s also lets the Department of National Defense move forward with a growing list of supporting capabilities, such as similarly deferred acquisitions for tankers, training jets, uncrewed aircraft systems, maritime patrol aircraft and the modernization of the North Warning System.

A contract signing for 88 F-35As for the Royal Canadian Air Force is still months away. Filomena Tassi, minister of public services and procurement, assured a Cansec exhibition audience on June 2 that final negotiations would be complete by the end of the year. But J.R. McDonald, Lockheed’s vice president for F-35 business development, told reporters during the event that the government-to-government talks could stretch to early 2023, with first aircraft deliveries potentially deferred by a year to 2026 [emphasis added].

Any further detail may seem trivial compared to the 20-year search for a CF-18 replacement, however. Then-Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced a plan to buy 65 F-35As. But the opposition Liberal Party objected to a selection without a competition, rejecting Harper’s argument that the choice flowed out of Canada’s decision in 2002 to join the F-35 development program. In 2017, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau launched a five-year competitive bidding process, which reaffirmed the predecessor’s choice 12 years after the fact.

That decade of indecision put Lockheed’s F-35 Canadian suppliers in a difficult position. Production contracts for parts and services continued and in some cases expanded, but Canadian industry remained locked out of the lucrative sustainment phase of the F-35 program.

“There were no opportunities there, but I think it will open up now,” says Shaun Horning, president and CEO of Gastops, which supplies sensors for the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine.

For its part, Lockheed is open to expanding the program’s global network of suppliers in all phases of the program. The ongoing expulsion of Turkey’s industry from the F-35 supply chain has created voids and reinforced Lockheed’s appreciation for supplier diversity.

“We have to expand our vision, so to speak, for production providers,” Lockheed’s McDonald says.
Some Canadian industry officials are concerned that the selection of the F-35 imperils certain industrial strengths. CAE, for example, leveraged its role as the training system supplier for the CF-18 into a global franchise and continues to operate the NATO Flying Training in Canada center in Cold Lake, Alberta. Lockheed’s internal simulator systems division, however, provides turn-key training services for the F-35. As the CF-18 fleet retires, CAE’s role as a locally based training supplier is at risk [emphasis added].

On the eve of the Cansec exhibition, CAE executives called on the Canadian government to demand the establishment of a global F-35 training center as part of final contract negotiations with the U.S.-led Joint Program Office. Such work is often set aside as an industrial offset in international fighter deals, but the terms of Canada’s membership in the international F-35 development, production and follow-on sustainment program prohibit such non-competitive set-asides.

A training center, which could leverage Canada’s existing training ranges and vast airspace, could be established if Trudeau’s governent ims willing to pay for more than just a CF-18 replacement [emphasis added].

“If you want something unique in your country, you have to ask for it,” says Jacques Morin, CAE’s vice president of business development and strategy. “If you don’t ask for it, you’re not going to get it.”

But committing to spend more on services and support for the F-35 could be difficult. In addition to a long list of airborne refueling, surveillance and air defense needs, Ottawa is also developing a new class of Canadian Surface Combatant ships for the Royal Canadian Navy and acquiring a new fighting vehicle for the army.

In 2017, Trudeau’s “Strong, Secure, Engaged” defense policy committed the Liberal government to a 70% boost in military spending over a decade. The policy paid for the new fighters, ships and fighting vehicles now in development but kept overall expenditures at around 1.4% of GDP. The government is currently updating the defense policy and must decide if a second wave of spending increases is necessary.
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/f-35-decision-unleashes-demands-more-spending-canada

Mark
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