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The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces

blacktriangle

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Jarnhamar said:
Right. And just because something has been done for ages doesn't mean it needs to be changed either.

Plq could use some changes I'm sure. It still needs to have some raised voices and raised adrenaline so when things get scary, like someone shooting rockets at you, leaders don't curl up in a ball and wet themselves. Not saying that sarcastically either. From what I recall clerks aren't hard assessed on section attacks but they're exposed to it.

Being able to fight is a common task for the military. Section attacks teach muscle for fire and movement for 8 directions.
No, a clerk sergeant probably won't be taking a section of clerks and attacking bad guys but they may have to take some privates and withdraw while getting shot at. Plq will give the leader some exposure controlling people moving around with guns.

I think a lot of soldiers are hoping we keep doing this work from home, part time hours thing. Not going to work long term.

You'd think though that with all the technology we have, we'd be able to find more ways of keeping our HR and Finance professionals out of high-threat environments.
 
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stellarpanther

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Jarnhamar said:
I think a lot of soldiers are hoping we keep doing this work from home, part time hours thing. Not going to work long term.

You're absolutely right, and some people are surprisingly saying it publicly on FB groups and in the office.  Many people including CAF mbr's are afraid of catching this virus.  It's not the same as going off on deployment and getting hurt or killed, people can catch it and pass it on to their kids or spouses.  If push comes to shove I think they'll go back but I've heard several people say they will quite first.  Again, I don't believe they will but who knows.  The CAF still has several mbr's that are diabetic or have other conditions that put them at higher risk of complications and those mbr's are and need to be protected so they won't be able to go back to business as usual for a while.
One thing I will say about working from home is that believe it or not, a lot is still getting done.  I've read articles as I'm sure others here have as well quoting various companies saying this working at home thing is more productive than they thought it would be.

 
 

PuckChaser

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Jarnhamar said:
What lots of work is getting done at home by the military?
D Mil Pay sure isnt working from home, been waiting a year and counting on my LDA audit and backpay...
 

blacktriangle

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PuckChaser said:
D Mil Pay sure isnt working from home, been waiting a year and counting on my LDA audit and backpay...

Maybe they're moonlighting as VAC employees.
 
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stellarpanther

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PuckChaser said:
D Mil Pay sure isnt working from home, been waiting a year and counting on my LDA audit and backpay...

I obviously don't know when you last followed up on it with your OR but a year seems long even for them.

 

Jarnhamar

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Stellerpanther the people you seem to enjoy conversing with on FB and other places sound like real anti-soldiers. It seems like you've fallen into their anti-soldiering mentality too. I highly doubt the people who you're talking to are threatening to quit the caf to protect their family from covid. They just don't like going to work and they're going to latch on to every reason they can not to go back to work.
 

mariomike

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stellarpanther said:
Many people including CAF mbr's are afraid of catching this virus. 

Nothing wrong with being afraid. As long as you do your job.
 
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stellarpanther

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Jarnhamar said:
Stellerpanther the people you seem to enjoy conversing with on FB and other places sound like real anti-soldiers. It seems like you've fallen into their anti-soldiering mentality too. I highly doubt the people who you're talking to are threatening to quit the caf to protect their family from covid. They just don't like going to work and they're going to latch on to every reason they can not to go back to work.

You are probably right that most of the people threating to quit won't actually do so and I said that in my post.  You might see some people who were close to retirement and on the fence as to whether they're ready to pull the pin do it but who knows.  Some of the people are still young and would need to still have a job and it's not going to be any different on civi street.  The older ones may just collect their pension and enjoy life.
As far as who I converse with, I don't think they are anti-soldier because the majority of them still enjoy being in the CAF as do I.  Just because some people would like to see some changes, doesn't mean they're anti-soldier.
 

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stellarpanther said:
As far as who I converse with, I don't think they are anti-soldier because the majority of them still enjoy being in the CAF as do I.  Just because some people would like to see some changes, doesn't mean they're anti-soldier.

Do you think that the changes they want are the product of their environment? Someone doing their whole career in a cubicle in the NCR will see far less value to PLQ or other "soldier training" than someone in the same trade in a Bde. You can apply the same rationale to a shore billet sailor (before RCN folks jump on me). You can apply the same concept in reverse, a field force solider/sailing sailor will see less value in all those "office environment" training courses on DLN or administrative paperwork that they see getting away of doing the business downrange.

The bigger question is, what do we want the CAF culture to be? Majority office employees wearing a uniform of convenience learning how to "deal with people in the NCR" with a few folks on the pointy end with a completely different culture causing a giant rift between the 2? Majority pointy end folks looking down their nose at a small minority office folks? Or somewhere in the middle where we can move experienced field force folks into office roles with minimal culture change as everyone is trying to pull the ship in the same direction?
 

Eye In The Sky

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stellarpanther said:
What cuts if any do people see happening in the CAF/DND?  A few of us were having a private chat on FB over the last few days and we were thinking about courses that could be cut.  PLQ was one that a couple people thought about for certain trades.  Like all courses, they're expensive when you think about transportation, meals, housing and everything else and for many trades, useless.  Take for example and HRA or FSA and some others.  They get promoted, do the job as a MCpl for up to two years and sometimes longer depending on availability or injury/illness and then go back and keep doing the same job they did prior to going on course.  Learning section attacks, giving O groups etc doesn't train us to be better supervisors in the OR.  The only think I can think is beneficial is learning to teach a lesson and that can probably be done at the unit level. There are probably many other courses as well.

Then you're forgetting about the 'solder first' idea, and as a HRA or FSA, you are not 100% "never" going to be involved with basic force protection/defence tasks.  When I was on IMPACT, the ASF was primarily made up of JTF-SC types who never left 'that location'.  Who would provide that 'section level' leadership? 

Principle of Universality of Service

2.4 The principle of universality of service or "soldier first" principle holds that CAF members are liable to perform general military duties and common defence and security duties, not just the duties of their military occupation or occupational specification. This may include, but is not limited to, the requirement to be physically fit, employable and deployable for general operational duties.

Forget the word 'supervisors' for a minute; although it is heavily used it is a 'civilian' term.  Use superior officer (IAW the QR & O definition);  the CAF PLQ course is not specific to any trade, it is part of the PD system and NCM General Specifications for a reason.  You learn more than just section attacks and O Gps.  CAF mbrs who are holding the MCpl/MS appointment are superior officers to their subordinates.  They must be able to lead and be effective in "not just the duties of their military occupation".

Re: your comments about "can you see an image tech leading a section attack"?  I've taught PLQ in the past;  the reason section attacks are used is to assess the candidates ability to maintain command and control of a small group of people in a simulated, pressure environment.  The 'tactics' portion of said section attack is basically 'unassessed', because most student Section Commanders have no idea how to put in an attack, really.  I was Cbt Arms and I didn't know that stuff, as I wasn't an infanteer.  I could, however, properly assess any candidate on their ability to command, control and maintain focus and composure, their ability to assess/plan/implement plan, etc.  Section attacks are simply a cost-effective tool at assessing many things in candidates, including the stuff I mentioned and more (teamwork, fitness, etc).  On a leadership course, you're not only being assessed when you are the student Sect Comd.

The solution to the (IMO, unacceptable) large number of Acting/Lacking ranks out there is not to lower the standard.  It is to make the successful completion of all courses a pre-requisite to promotion.  When I was on SLC (now called ILP, WO leadership qual) back in 2002, there were 2 PLQs running at the same time.  All the PLQ candidates were A/L MCpl-MS.  We, the CAF, have accepted a lower standard for far to long. 

I disagree with your PLQ suggestion, 101%.  If we do that, then I say remove the MCpl-MS appointment for any/all trades who say they do not need the training. 

Why not take some time, get your hands on a copy of the Non-Commissioned Member General Specification document and review it, so you understand more about why PLQ is a required training program we need to train our Jnr NCO Corps, and as a foundation of leadership training, skills and abilities that will be added to as Jnr NCOs progress thru the Snr NCO and Warrant Officer ranks?

I do, however, think the PLQ course should always be open to discussion about content, delivery, etc.
 

MilEME09

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Eye In The Sky said:
The solution to the (IMO, unacceptable) large number of Acting/Lacking ranks out there is not to lower the standard.  It is to make the successful completion of all courses a pre-requisite to promotion.  When I was on SLC (now called ILP, WO leadership qual) back in 2002, there were 2 PLQs running at the same time.  All the PLQ candidates were A/L MCpl-MS.  We, the CAF, have accepted a lower standard for far to long. 

It hasn't changed much, my PLQ in 2018 about half was acting/lacking. How many trades have specialty leadership courses after PLQ? I know armoured have their crew commander course, in RCEME we have DP2 Common RCEME which is our MRT Commander/workshop supervisor course. It takes what you learn on PLQ and applies it specifically to your trade, battle procedure is tweaked a bit in each trade I find. For HRA/FSA perhaps some kind of office management course is required if it doesn't exist after plq.
 

Eye In The Sky

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stellarpanther said:
Many people including CAF mbr's are afraid of catching this virus.  It's not the same as going off on deployment and getting hurt or killed, people can catch it and pass it on to their kids or spouses.  If push comes to shove I think they'll go back but I've heard several people say they will quite first.

If they want to release, because they are that worried, I say call the release section and good luck in your next career and I am sincere about it.  Some people join the CAF and don't fully realize that it comes with unique conditions of employment and risks including death caused by the performance of their duty.

Flying operations have continued in the RCAF;  that usually puts 2 pilots in close proximity in a cockpit with re-circ'd air.  If the Air Force can do it, I am sure Orderly Rooms, etc can as well.

The CAF still has several mbr's that are diabetic or have other conditions that put them at higher risk of complications and those mbr's are and need to be protected so they won't be able to go back to business as usual for a while.

In those cases, I trust the professional in CF Health Svcs will provide the member(s) with the necessary MELs; 
 
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stellarpanther

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Eye In The Sky said:
If they want to release, because they are that worried, I say call the release section and good luck in your next career and I am sincere about it.  Some people join the CAF and don't fully realize that it comes with unique conditions of employment and risks including death caused by the performance of their duty.

Flying operations have continued in the RCAF;  that usually puts 2 pilots in close proximity in a cockpit with re-circ'd air.  If the Air Force can do it, I am sure Orderly Rooms, etc can as well.

In those cases, I trust the professional in CF Health Svcs will provide the member(s) with the necessary MELs;

They have.  They are being given a 6 month - 1 year T-Cat depending on base, that says words to the effect" Not to be employed in an area where 2 meters distancing can't be maintained and must have the ability to wash hands frequently.  There's one or 2 other things also but can't remember what those were.  I have a friend in that situation and he was given a chit a week or so ago.  According to one MO, it's not going to be treated as a normal T-Cat meaning that it won't lead to a medical release if not resolved in the future.

 

Eye In The Sky

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MilEME09 said:
It hasn't changed much, my PLQ in 2018 about half was acting/lacking. How many trades have specialty leadership courses after PLQ? I know armoured have their crew commander course, in RCEME we have DP2 Common RCEME which is our MRT Commander course. It takes what you learn on PLQ and applies it specifically to your trade, battle procedure is tweaked a bit in each trade I find. For HRA/FSA perhaps some kind of office management course is required if it doesn't exist after plq.

I'm not tracking most trades current DP trg, but some (most?) trades have a DP2/3 course like a "6B" (Sgts) course, was renamed DP3B I think when things switched back around 2001 to the DP system.

My trade does not have a "Sgts" course, but we have other training and 'tools' to assess and merit JNCOs for promotion to the Snr NCO rank, and then later into the Warrant Officers rank levels.  The RCAF also has an Intermediate Air Environmental Qualification (not an overly challenging course, 1 week long) that is one all Snr NCOs posted to RCAF units are required to take. 

In the DP system itself, and the NCM GS/PD system, the next 'leadership' qual is the ILQ (WO/PO1 course).  I think that PD/leadership trg system 'works' well enough to not revamp it pan-CAF.
 
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stellarpanther

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As I don't want to hijack this thread since there already is a PLQ thread, what other changes/cuts does anyone reasonably predict?  With the amount of money that's been lost and will be lost due to job loses and money the government has paid out, I just can't see how budgets won't be cut.

 

Eye In The Sky

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stellarpanther said:
As I don't want to hijack this thread since there already is a PLQ thread, what other changes/cuts does anyone reasonably predict?  With the amount of money that's been lost and will be lost due to job loses and money the government has paid out, I just can't see how budgets won't be cut.

I don't think it is a hi-jack;  I didn't agree with your 'cutting out' PLQ.  Suspending it?  Maybe that will be a fiscal decision where Snr Comd accepts the risk and suspends PLQ courses UFN. 

Maybe the % of postings will be reduced the next X amount of years (saving money on all move-related costs).  Maybe they will extend the life-cycle timeline of CAF IT equipment an extra year, saving $ on procurement costs. 

I think the one cut many people are wondering about;  a pay and/or rank freeze period.  That affects everyone;  it can have a negative affect on mbr's close to retirement "best 5", it can mean losing a posting, it can mean a couple of hundreds dollars a month in disposable income.

I would think that a lot of people are also wondering if this might affect PLD; that also has some very negative financial implications for many svc mbr's and their families.
 

Jarnhamar

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stellarpanther] Just because some people would like to see some changes said:
They have.  They are being given a 6 month - 1 year T-Cat depending on base, that says words to the effect" Not to be employed in an area where 2 meters distancing can't be maintained and must have the ability to wash hands frequently.  There's one or 2 other things also but can't remember what those were.  I have a friend in that situation and he was given a chit a week or so ago.  According to one MO, it's not going to be treated as a normal T-Cat meaning that it won't lead to a medical release if not resolved in the future.

No risk of field time for that friend eh?

 

MilEME09

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I don't think they will touch PLD or anything that will have a huge quality of life affect on families. I agree a posting freeze may happen, or they may increase the time between postings. Moving people across the country costs a lot after all. Exercises like Maple Resolve will likely be scaled back in scope, less serials per year of certain courses.
 

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I don't think cutting PLQ will save as much money as you think. Want to save $25M a year? MAPLE RESOLVE is a pretty good target. Postings are a probably pretty good one too at roughly $200K (I've heard) a pop for a cross country move. Snowbirds? That's a big line item with now a public history of A/C issues starting to crop up. Skyhawks cut? How about all the TD for CAF Musicians to fly around the world and play for everyone but the CAF (except for a few small occasions)? Maybe we'll end up with less CSCs or delayed LEs for Upholders, but those are critical Irving employee votes the Liberals need.

PLD already hasn't been touched specifically (this is the cynic in me) to save money. Setting Ottawa as a baseline was a deliberate cost cutting move and we won't see that change in our lifetimes.
 
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