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The Matt Stopford Saga

Indeed. The medical community in the CF-at least as it was when I was in-was not so much unprepared or incapable of dealing with the Post-Op issues as much as they refused to look elsewhere.

For example, after the 1993 Yugo tour some soldiers were identified as suffering from PTSD. After looking into (then) the symtpoms for PTSD (see the DSM IV  for more information) it became readily apparent that PTSD was not, at least in many cases, the proper diagnosis. I tried discussing this with the Med-Psych people and they basically refused to acknowledge the shortcomings in using this diagnosis. In Israel a more appropriate diagnosis, known as Combat Stress Reaction (CSR), seems applicable. And the Israeli's ought to know given the conditions they send their troops into (whatever your opinion of ths situation).

The thing with CSR that differs from PTSD (and its variants) is twofold. On the one hand, PTSD requires there to be a 'traumatic' incident that acts as a catalyst or precursor to the Post Traumatic condition (These criteria are well explained in the DSM). However, the DSM also notes that the trauma occurs very differently, if at all, in and among certain high risk occupations-i.e. police, fire fighters, medical personnel (It does not include the military most likely because it is a civilian organisation) Back to the point. The reason why these groups are effected differently (warranting a different diagnosis) is simple: for trauma to evolve into a PTSD diagnosis and condition the initial event must be traumatic. In this case a traumatic environment is not the one that these high risk occupations are trained and experienced to exist in. For example, a paramedic. Although a paramedic may be 'shocked' by what he or she sees at a bad crash site they wont (normally) suffer PTSD from what they have seen. Why? Because this environment is not a 'traumatic' one to them. Another example closer to home: a Clerk may suffer PTSD from witnessing or taking part in the grave's registration duties we had to deal with in Yugo or the fighting in Medak. However, it is highly unlikely that an infanteer will because we are trained to exist and live in these very circumstances. This is NOT to say PTSD cannot occur only that it is highly, highly, unlikely.

On the other hand, CSR speaks directly to anger. And, for those who served with either 2 PPCLI up north in Yugo or 2 RCR down south (c.1993) they'll know, upon return, how the experiences overseas were manifest in the soldiers when they returned: anger. And lots of it. As the distance from the events widens the ability to cope with and locate the anger is limited and deepens in regards to CSR. In PTSD, which is a rare diagnosis in reality, the condition tends to sort itself out. In fact, many experts (real and experienced experts-i.e. those who dealt with Columbine) are saying that immediate intervention (often called Critical Incident Stress Debriefing or CISD) may worsen the problem. Why? BECAUSE we humans are a tough lot in the end and traumatic incidents are often, more or less, satisfactorily dealt with on their own. That is to say, it tends to deal with itself. Furthermore, as the person moves away from the events and environment the stress tends to decline as well. These experiences are COMPLETELY the opposite of CSR and in contrast to my experiences and those of my peers after Yugo (having been a facilitator).

But, and again, the military Med-Psych world did not want to discuss this. I went even as far as discussing it with the Ombudsmen and a member of the SCONDVA commision (the latter called once in regards to that tour and our opinions of the 'follow-up' actions. To which my response was: What follow-up?).

Sending troops to a happy middle ground before they return from a tour IS a great idea (that's why the long boat home from Europe allowed WW II soldier's to deal with alot of their grief). However, one of the major failures of the Medical branch was in MIS-diagnosiing soldiers. Soldiers who, by their very soldierly nature, will try and fit the diagnosis, a diagnosis given by a superior, and a superior supposedly only interested in that soldiers best intersts!

Many soldiers tried very hard to understand why their lives were falling apart and, especially here, the medical system (specifically the Med-Psych people) failed by virtue of conscious ignorance.

Add this to our leadership problem and soldiers are now left with very few avenues of support...

...I have ranted again it would seem...     :-\
 
Ex 2 PPCLI I'm assuming you are a psychiatrist or some sort of mental heath worker with years of experience working in the mental health field. Or are you just someone who pursed the DSM and came up with your own conclusions? The idea that soldiers will suffer from PTSD because their "soldierly nature" compels them to obey a "misdiagnosis" from a military psychiatrist because he/she is superior officer is the most outlandish thing I've ever heard. Does that mean if the doctor tells a perfectly healthy soldier that he has a broken leg he'll immediately fall down? PTSD does not just sort itself out because we are a "tough lot". This attitude harkens back to the old days when after a traumatic incident "therapy" consisted of downing a 40 oz.
 
Jumper, I think Ex-2VP's points make a certain sense. Is PTSD simply another name for Critical Incident Stress (CIS) or Combat Stress reaction (CSR)? What about long-term stress and its effects (overwork in bad conditions, with no definable "incident")? That was my problem, I knew I had some symptoms that were consistent with PTSD, but I couldn't reconcile that with my experiences - I couldn't identify combat or a single (or even multiple) incident as a cause. In many ways I see it like trying to get something from VAC because one's knees are shot, but there is no CF98 defining the moment of injury. It's a long-term thing.

The fact is that even the "mental health workers" are trying to sort out what these injuries entail, and it isn't any further far fetched to believe they have made mis-diagnoses than it is to believe a medic diagnosing a stress fracture as muscle inflamation (a personal experience, BTW, which I "toughed out" including patrolling and an advance to contact on foot, because it didn't seem serious enough). Perhaps what is truly PTSD does sort itself out, and it's the other injuries that do not.

Maybe Ex2VP IS a mental health worker. Even if not, his posts are clear and well-thought-out as far as I can see. At least worth consideration. If you have a dispute, voice it to the issue, not the individual.

Acorn
 
Ex_2_PPCLI said:
This is not to say that Matt wasn't poisoned. Rather it is just a comment on the quick resort to these things as happening as relatively commmon occurrences. If Matt was poisoned, even this late in the game, medical inquiry could narrow thie likelihood of this down or not. Now why this isn't being investigated medically, and, admittedly, this may be due to my own ignorance, is the question I find vexing.

Occurrences, as in plural? Can you elaborate, or are you referring to these types of incidents over a protracted measure of time across different operations?
 
Jumper:

I understand where and how you might come to think that I was making such a suggestion. Allow me to try and summarise this in a different way. What I was suggesting, and this applies to some soldiers certainly not all, is that many soldiers will (and did) try and make the diagnosis fit their predicament. Unfortunately, for some soldiers, the diagnosis itself was not given much consideration. PTSD(S), as described in the DSM (IV in particular because it is the newest), does NOT take into account high risk occupations. It is documented, quite soundly, that these high risk occupations deal with events differently than those who are not part of that, particular, high risk occupation. Mere exposure to some traumatic events would, in most or all other circumstances, be considered grounds to observe those people for symptoms of PTSD(S). However, because of their training and familiarity with otherwise extra-ordinary events (i.e. car accidents, fires, arrests gone bad, or combat), these trained individuals are very UN-likely to have the negative effects of those exposures manifest into a condition like PTSD(S).

Now, ALL of this would be forgiveable if, and only if, information was not available to the (Psych) med people previous to our deployment in, for example, the former Yugoslavia (1993). But, as documented in SCONDVA (see, especially, Lt. Cmdr G. Passey's testimony and Capt. (padre) Mike Brown's), this information WAS, in fact, reasonably well known in the professional med and pysch-world. In addition to this information I, myself, talked to Lt. Cmdr Passey. Upon leaving the forces, and returning to Halifax, I  followed this issue up because I had met some friends/members who had been medically released from the CF for these very grounds. Upon discussing the matter with a med-psych person at CFB Stadacona (Maj. Jetli, if memory serves me) I was, as you can imagine, quite shocked to find out that the information I had found out, by amateur research (no I am not a health worker I was a corporal in 2 PPCLI and am now a secondary school teacher in Vancouver), was known by the med-psych people but was not given much consideration-ironic given that the Israelis themselves began looking into the issue some 30 years ago BECAUSE the (then) diagnosis of stress reactions did not seem to help their soldiers. When I asked why this was the case I received alot of BS. Unofficially, I was told, and yes you can take this for what it is worth, that PTSD(S) was the 'diagnosis-of-the-day.' This was due, in part, to the findings made by Lt. Cmdr Passey's investigations in 1994 inquiring into both my unit-2 PPCLI- but also the RCR (2nd Bn) who were in Sarajevo. Alot of public pressure to do something 'for our boys' was the result of this inquiry (for better or for worse).

The point was that there was other information available but it wasn't utilised-even in the face of a commissions inquiry into the problems our unit, and the CF in general, faced.

I was not trying to condemn soldiers nor was I suggesting that soldiers would blindly follow a doctors orders. Having been a RegF (031) trained and operationally experienced soldier, I know better. But I also know, from first hand experience, how many of my friends and peers felt because I (among with others) disucussed this with them...some of my opinion is formed from their very personal responses and experiences. Again, not all, but some. And it is the 'some' who were inexcusably overlooked that I was, and am, concerned with.

Finally, PTSD(S) does, quite often, 'sort itself out.' That is well documented within the medical field. As you noted, and here you are quite correct, 'you do not 'tough it out.' But, if you are to seek out help don't you think we, who have served, sacrificed and those who continue to do so, deserve to be 'helped' by medical professionals who, then, act as the professionals we did?

And, to some degree, this suggests that we may NOT have come much further than the 40 oz'er days...at least, perhaps, not as far as we could, or should, have... food for thought...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Whiskey601'

What I meant by staing that "it is just a comment on the quick resort to these things [fragging, poisoning call it what you will] as happening as relatively commmon occurrences" was merely that a single incident can often become endemic or pervasive merely by the mention of that event. In reality, these events rarely occur and tend to be started as a prank, a bitch, or a rumour.

I was trying to suggest, and forgive me if I wasn't clear, that alot of 'fragging' incidents are urban myth. Yes, I know that they have occurred. What I was trying to get at is that often the stories of their occurrences are taken in and spread by people without any critical thought put into it or evidence sought-but I also do not want to suggest that this is done so maliciously. More often than not it is passed around through simple out-of-boredom conversations.

Someone once told me that somebody had intentionally left two rounds in the CSM and Stopford's jeep. I later found out, from someone in the company, that this was done as a joke. No doubt, if it did occur, Matt or the CSM may have taken it serious. The point being it became a kind of legend around the unit as a 'warning' when, in fact, it was a joke (if it occurred at all).



Acorn: FYI: CISD is the system or method used, by 'trained' facilitators as a means of debriefing immediately upon the occurrence of an event. CSR is a medical method that is employed in regards to trained members (in this case combat and Israeli) who have faced traumatic situations. It deals with the most common response of soldiers to things like civilian deaths (aka 'collateral damage'), terrorist attacks, or graves registration duties, for example. Here, the most common expression of stress is anger. If left undiagnosed (or if diagnoised incorrectly-i.e. as, say, PTSDS :) ) the anger can become debilitating and dangerous.

Thanks for you words. Much appreciated.

Cheers,
      Will
 
Ex_2_PPCLI said:
Jumper:

I understand where and how you might come to think that I was making such a suggestion. Allow me to try and summarise this in a different way. What I was suggesting, and this applies to some soldiers certainly not all, is that many soldiers will (and did) try and make the diagnosis fit their predicament. Unfortunately, for some soldiers, the diagnosis itself was not given much consideration. PTSD(S), as described in the DSM (IV in particular because it is the newest), does NOT take into account high risk occupations. It is documented, quite soundly, that these high risk occupations deal with events differently than those who are not part of that, particular, high risk occupation. Mere exposure to some traumatic events would, in most or all other circumstances, be considered grounds to observe those people for symptoms of PTSD(S). However, because of their training and familiarity with otherwise extra-ordinary events (i.e. car accidents, fires, arrests gone bad, or combat), these trained individuals are very UN-likely to have the negative effects of those exposures manifest into a condition like PTSD(S).

Now, ALL of this would be forgiveable if, and only if, information was not available to the (Psych) med people previous to our deployment in, for example, the former Yugoslavia (1993). But, as documented in SCONDVA (see, especially, Lt. Cmdr G. Passey's testimony and Capt. (padre) Mike Brown's), this information WAS, in fact, reasonably well known in the professional med and pysch-world. In addition to this information I, myself, talked to Lt. Cmdr Passey. Upon leaving the forces, and returning to Halifax, I   followed this issue up because I had met some friends/members who had been medically released from the CF for these very grounds. Upon discussing the matter with a med-psych person at CFB Stadacona (Maj. Jetli, if memory serves me) I was, as you can imagine, quite shocked to find out that the information I had found out, by amateur research (no I am not a health worker I was a corporal in 2 PPCLI and am now a secondary school teacher in Vancouver), was known by the med-psych people but was not given much consideration-ironic given that the Israelis themselves began looking into the issue some 30 years ago BECAUSE the (then) diagnosis of stress reactions did not seem to help their soldiers. When I asked why this was the case I received alot of BS. Unofficially, I was told, and yes you can take this for what it is worth, that PTSD(S) was the 'diagnosis-of-the-day.' This was due, in part, to the findings made by Lt. Cmdr Passey's investigations in 1994 inquiring into both my unit-2 PPCLI- but also the RCR (2nd Bn) who were in Sarajevo. Alot of public pressure to do something 'for our boys' was the result of this inquiry (for better or for worse).

The point was that there was other information available but it wasn't utilised-even in the face of a commissions inquiry into the problems our unit, and the CF in general, faced.

I was not trying to condemn soldiers nor was I suggesting that soldiers would blindly follow a doctors orders. Having been a RegF (031) trained and operationally experienced soldier, I know better. But I also know, from first hand experience, how many of my friends and peers felt because I (among with others) disucussed this with them...some of my opinion is formed from their very personal responses and experiences. Again, not all, but some. And it is the 'some' who were inexcusably overlooked that I was, and am, concerned with.

Finally, PTSD(S) does, quite often, 'sort itself out.' That is well documented within the medical field. As you noted, and here you are quite correct, 'you do not 'tough it out.' But, if you are to seek out help don't you think we, who have served, sacrificed and those who continue to do so, deserve to be 'helped' by medical professionals who, then, act as the professionals we did?

And, to some degree, this suggests that we may NOT have come much further than the 40 oz'er days...at least, perhaps, not as far as we could, or should, have... food for thought...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Cheers,
       Will

Thanks for your responce and clarification. I in no way intended to personally attack you or your views. However being diagnosed with PTSD myself (Bosnia 93/94 Warcrimes Tribunal) my hackles get a little raised whenever I hear or read the old "Tough it out because of your training mantra". Over my career I have been involved in more than a few homicide investigations, however nothing prepared me for what I experienced in Bosnia. I realize that this is not what you were trying to say though. Are there alternative diagnosis out there? Yes. Is psychiatry an exact science? No. Is PTSD the end all be all? I don't know? Whatever the diagnosis whether it be PTSD or CSR I know that the military medical system has been a great help to me. J
 
Jumper: Thanks for being even-handed. I know these things can be both provocative and emotinal even if brought across fairly (and we know that it is just as often, unfortunately, brought across in an accusatory or dismissive manner).

You did, in your second reply, manage to point out something I did overlook in my original post: I did not pay due respect to all of the medical community who do excellent work. You are right-most of the med-staff are both professional and committed.

An oversight on my part. My bad.


Thanks,
      Will
 
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2005/09/25/1234558.html
 
sorry to drag up an old thread, but its finally settled:

News Release
DND and former soldier Matt Stopford agree on settlement
NR– 06.028 - June 20, 2006

OTTAWA – The Department of National Defence (DND) has reached a settlement with former Warrant Officer Matthew Stopford regarding injuries he allegedly received as a result of military service.  This settlement reached is to the satisfaction of both parties.

The terms of the agreement are confidential; both parties have agreed not to discuss the settlement or negotiations leading to it.

-30-

Note to Editor: This is a joint news release between the Department of National Defence and counsel for Mr. Stopford, James Cameron, from the law firm of Raven, Cameron, Ballantyne & Yazbeck Barristers & Solicitors in Ottawa (613-682-3871).
 
Im glad to see it settled, and stopford defenitely never deserved to be poisoned.

Moderator edit - Let's leave the speculation to the newspapers.  Bottom line is a soldier is suffering and he should be taken care of by the government that sent him overseas.  End of storey.
 
This may open some old wounds but here goes. (Emphasis mine).

Article Link

A Canadian soldier poisoned by his own men in Croatia in 1993 was awarded $625,000 in a deal with the federal government, records show.

Matt Stopford's out-of-court settlement was not disclosed when the agreement was reached in June 2006, but the figure was contained in recently released public-accounts records.

It was listed as an ex-gratia — or kindness — payment, which recognizes no legal liability.

More on link.





 
Just a short note on the release. If i had release what D.N.D. did yesterday, I would be in jail tonight. They (the DND) have breached the court orders to not discuss anything during and after the settlement. I have been legally gagged from providing any statement or disclose the details since the settlement, so after so many warnings and threats from D.N.D. and the legal beagles I was stunned at their public release and am considering my options.

Two things for now, though there are no heroes in this story, the only heroes are the complete unit and every soldier who ever participated in the Medak Pocket. The heroes are any soldier who has ever fired his weapon for his country, but not individual soldiering because it is a team effort and will always be so.
Second, what they (the DND) released has nothing to do with what D.N.D. was supposed to do for any suffering veteran and they still have not done what they said they would to look after all soldiers who need help and assistance.

Whenever I tried to push them the past two years, I was constantly warned not to bring up the court case or settlement. I feel now that they have breached the court order, I am free to discuss the issues and points but if their are current soldiers and veterans having issues with Veterans Affairs, I need to know so that I can prove all over again to the Army who still insists that there is no problem.

Thanks, while I am sick I will attempt to respond to any questions on this disgusting matter.

-Matt Stopford.

edited to clarify the post, because I feel it is important that this post is clear to all considering who the poster is and what insight he brings to this matter.
WO Stopford, I hope my editing did not lose any of the meaning you wished to put in your post.

-HF, Army.ca Staff
 
but the figure was contained in recently released public-accounts records.

Matt,
While I have no intention of stepping in and try to defend the CF in this breach of your confidentiality agreement, I would venture to say that Treasury Board public account records are the problem here.  Financial transactions are a matter of public domain (though the reasons behind the transaction might be private).

CHIMO!
 
Thanks for the edit I am having trouble posting messages I finish try spell check and my correspondence gets kicked out don't even know if I'm in the right forum but will keep trying. I spoke with government today who are assuring myself the release came from D.N.D. if it was just financial matter it would have been release last year. Was warned by military legal people this morning not to discuss the settlement but feel I must as you will see why. I took a lot less monetary gain at the settlement because was promised that radical new ways of looking after soldiers vets and family's would be put in place if I accepted the offer. part of it was veterans affairs ombudsman but the rest of the forth coming help for all soldiers has not occurred and not been acted on by the defence department so due to their breach of the agreement i feel i can now openly discus these problems though I fully expect rocket's from N.D.H.Q. but what else is new? I will keep trying to figure out this system and pass on more asap. Matt
 
The CF is suddenly being forced to deal with a large number of seriously injured people... something to do with no longer sticking to the late '60s model of world constabulary / peacekeeper notion that the country has had a fixation on..

From personal experience at an area HQ we regularly receive Access to information requests for financial transactions DND has put through.  While some / most of it is protected by "privacy" legislation, media can do a lot of dedective/deduction work with the info that does eventualy get released.

WRT forcing the CF to meet committments they have made to you - by all means, I wish you well and hope you get satisfaction - because whatever battles you fight are battles that the next injured soldier won't have to fight.

Cheers!
 
Yes i know about this release but it was a discussed with the judge two years ago. She warned all parties that absolutely nothing would become public i have received a letter from the crowns legal dept that said exactly what you have said but if this was the case they would have released the information last year or even in 2006. This is mute point anyway as they said i could not discuss any matter on the closed proceedings other than what they released to the press effectively leaving me defenceless so for my own protection had to talk to the media about all the issues. Interesting part is the minister called me from the U.S. and said this should have never happened and when he is back in Ottawa on Monday he will make it a priority and look into the matter for me. He will then bring me up to the capitol to try once again to sort this whole mess out cheers.
 
Matt,
I am glad that you were able to light a match and get such a quick response from our leaders.
I hope that you receive everything that you have been promissed along with a few heartfelt appologies.

Good luck & keep in touch

Cheers!
 
Matt, keep standing tall for all soldiers. You have put up with plenty of crap for way too long. Hang in there.
 
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