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The Legality of Self Defence In Canada

Stoker

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captloadie said:
As for the CCW, my argument against it is this: I don't have a concealed weapon and thug asks for my wallet, I give it to him and he goes away. I do have a concealed weapon and thug asks for my wallet, I pull my weapon, he pulls his, and one or both of us probably doesn't walk away.

You hope he goes away. If you want to be a victim that's up to you, but all that does is emboldens the perp to keep doing it time and time again. I know if I was allowed to CCW in Canada I would have no problem defending myself or my loved ones. The problem with Canadian society is that we are taught that its OK to be the victim and not fight back and the police will be to help us. In many places the police are overwhelmed and cannot be counted upon to act in a timely manner.
 

mariomike

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I hope this adds to the discussion in a positive way. It concerns the story of a man who used a firearm on the subway in New York. It's American justice, but may have some relevance to this topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz
 

PuckChaser

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Kat Stevens said:
So, better to just lie back and think of England, then?  Bullshit.  If you know how to frig someone up in order to stop them from ******* you up, swing away.

I wasn't advocating that at all. If someone attacks you and goes for your throat, they have now escalated to deadly force and you can do whatever you need to do to stop them. If they sucker punch you in the stomach, you can't drop kick them to the head, or throw on an armbar that breaks their arm in 5 places. This also means if you knock someone unconscious, you can't just start booting them in the head because you feel wronged by being attacked. You've stopped the assault, disarmed the individual if required, you move away to a safe place.
 

ballz

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PuckChaser said:
If they sucker punch you in the stomach, you can't drop kick them to the head, or throw on an armbar that breaks their arm in 5 places.

To my understanding, this is incorrect. Self-defense and "proper escalation of force" are two different things. Self-defense is about doing what is necessary to defend yourself and not going past that, where as escalation of force is more of a military/police procedure.

If somebody is assaulting you in the civilian world, "escalation of force" isn't a factor. Civilians don't have a variety of weapons available to "escalate" force with. Just because they are only using their fists in your stomach doesn't mean you can't escalate it as far as you need to for your own safety. I am pretty sure if somebody started wailing on your stomach and wouldn't stop you are perfectly justified in breaking their arm to make them stop and running away, as you did what you had to do to stop the assault and then got out of there (without turning the act of self-defense into your own assault).
 

Sapplicant

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Kat Stevens said:
I suppose all that's true, unfortunately.  What this country needs is a good, solid "sumbitch needed killing" line of legally admissable defence.


Or, we could be more like Kennesaw, Georgia. I'd even go so far as to say make it mandatory for every law-abiding, stable-minded, SOBER person to maintain a visible side-arm when in public. None of this CCW crap.

Bet criminals would think REAL hard before trying to pull any stunts if that were the case.

One more for good measure.
 

PuckChaser

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ballz said:
If somebody is assaulting you in the civilian world, "escalation of force" isn't a factor. Civilians don't have a variety of weapons available to "escalate" force with. Just because they are only using their fists in your stomach doesn't mean you can't escalate it as far as you need to for your own safety. I am pretty sure if somebody started wailing on your stomach and wouldn't stop you are perfectly justified in breaking their arm to make them stop and running away, as you did what you had to do to stop the assault and then got out of there (without turning the act of self-defense into your own assault).

You'd have to justify the broken arm as the only way to stop the attack. Easily done if the individual is larger than you, and you're backed in a corner. I think my example might have been a little off in how I was trying to explain it, in that I was trying to describe was the difference between someone being simply Assaultive (level 4) and using Deadily Force/Grievous Bodily Harm (Level 5). I agree with you that the force necessary to stop an attack may be a level up, but can't turn into its own assault.
 

KevinB

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Minimal Amount of Force by a reasonable person is still key.

Also most areas have disparity of force rules (small woman versus large man can go to gun early... as well as armed man can go to gun when confronted by a large amount of smaller individuals).

Also armed civilians (done here where we take life and liberty seriously) have the right to protect themselves with lethal force, as an attack on them can give the attacker a firearm.

  In Canada while you may have a right to self defence you don't always have the means...

 

wildman0101

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Dear Strike,
I would like to take this moment to apologise
for my DumbA** comment's and I sincerely
hope that you can forgive me. I was out of
line and got carried away with the teasing.
I don't blame you one bit for being pissed. I
have no doubt in my mind that you are every-
thing you say you are regard's your Martial Skill's
. I wish you the best and hope you take that title.
Sincerely Your's.
Scoty B
P.S. Boot upside my own head.
 

JB 11 11

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recceguy said:
So you're saying that if someone agrees or wants CCW they are a dick that can't be trusted?

You don't even know what your talking about, but that's your opinion.

I think that people that make uninformed statements, foist their personal values on others and resort to ad hominem attacks to bolster their ignorant outlook are arrogant pompous assholes that should be pitied for their narrowmindedness. That's my opinion.


edit to add smiley
Oh, forgot this:  :rofl:

Easy Tiger!..... Im not bloody advocating taking away the right to carry or to own. Im not in favour of restrictions. So Im not sure why you felt the need for that type of response?
What I AM in favour of is not allowing the average citizen the right to carry a loaded Sig in his/her waist band on a packed TTC train. I simply DONT trust the average person that far. Granted, the average person wouldn't pass the screenings, and thats good. I guess what I'm getting at is that I am not in favour of making it any easier for someone to carry a weapon (firearm) concealed or otherwise.

Thats MY personal opinion.... whether I know what Im talking about or not.
 

Colin Parkinson

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My wife was a lawyer in Malaysia and had to defend some real scumbags. She is under no illusions about how the criminal class views the rest of society. She wishes I could get CCW/ATC to protect her and the kids. She never goes out at night without a can of bearspray. Now we live in North Van and bears out at night are fairly common, so it would be hard for a cop to argue there is no need. Also the cops out here are quite selective about who they hassle for carrying such stuff.
I am not a martial arts type and although I do carry knives, I see the knife as last resort defense when all else has failed. Seen first hand what knives can do and you can win a knife fight and still die. My preference is anything that can increase the distance between you and the threat, which is why I am a fan of sprays. I have used a fire extinguisher as well, which can be quite effective, plus you have a decent club when it runs out.
I also advocate awareness, which seems to be the biggest issue today. I stopped counting the number of times I have seen a girl walking down an alley with her earphone on and engrossed in texting a message. Spotting the threat and taking action early resolves a lot of potential situations, just making eye contact and looking at them, tells them that you are on to them and that the target is not easy prey.
As for people opposed to CCW, few have bothered to crunch the numbers. In the US the FBI estimates that armed citizens thwart approx. 2 million crimes a year and that firearm related indictment rates for CCW permits holders hovers at about 1% and half of those is for dumb stuff like carrying into a federal building. The US estimates that something like 4-5 million new guns were sold in 2009 and over 12 BILLION rds of ammunition sold to civilian and law enforcement in North America in the same year. Meanwhile their homicide rate is plummeting about 4 times faster than ours.
 

Sig_Des

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Colin P said:
Meanwhile their homicide rate is plummeting about 4 times faster than ours.

Not to mention, something like the the 6 states with the highest gun-murder rates also happen to be some of the states with the toughest anti-gun laws.
 

JB 11 11

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With a population of 380 mil + vs. our 34 (ish) mil,  they still have long way to go I would think. Unless your talking on a per capita rate.

As for CCW and all of that.... meh. Its Canada. Say what you want, its still a "safe" place to live. I've lived in a lot of S&@% holes and it makes me very happry to be able to Canada my home.


All that aside, I think this is very much the way the OP's girlfriend should go:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/fight-science/3049/Overview

The episode on self defence has some great and very simple advice on this. features the likes of Chris Caracci (Former Seal instructor) and Bas Rutten to name but two, as well as currently serving Police officers. Good stuff, well worth a look.
 

Fusaki

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This one's for recceguy  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM
 

Retired AF Guy

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IrishCanuck said:
Get her a tactical pen.

No, that's not a joke.

Speaking of which... does anyone know if tactical pens are legal or not in Canada?

IrishCanuck

Legalities aside, I don't think using a tactical pen (or similar device) is a good idea. If you're close enough to strike the bad guy, then they are close enough to strike you. The idea is to stay away from the bad guy as much as possible. Plus, striking them with something like a tactical pen will only p*** the bad guy off which is the last thing you want to do.
 

zipperhead_cop

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That tactical pen is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.  If helping with your own crime scene seems like a good idea, let Darwinism take its course.

The best thing anyone, male or female, can do is be aware and not present themselves as a victim.  Don't ignore your instincts and react when you know something is going down.  As for the original scenario, the TTC subways have those strips on the walls.  Any of those creates an immediate response. 

I don't recall the study, but I do remember hearing that many women who were victims of violent crime allowed their attackers to get the drop on them because they were worried about seeming impolite and did not want to draw attention and be embarrassed.  Change the victim attitude and the whole game changes.  Weapons and training are a last resort.  Chose not to be in the situation.  I'm pretty sure nobody is going to be able to come up with a real life situation where a woman was sexually assaulted on the subway and people watched and did nothing.  Not saying it hasn't happened somewhere, just not in Toronto.  That city sucks, but not THAT badly yet

And I tell all the women in my life to carry bear spray.  Spray to the face, kick to the pills, run like hell.  Follow up with a cinder block to the head if you are feeling feisty.  I would never charge someone with a weapons offence if they were protecting themselves from a genuine attack.  They would probably get some help articulating their use of force and their perception of the threat presented in their statement too  ;)
 

mariomike

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zipperhead_cop said:
I'm pretty sure nobody is going to be able to come up with a real life situation where a woman was sexually assaulted on the subway and people watched and did nothing.  Not saying it hasn't happened somewhere, just not in Toronto.  That city sucks, but not THAT badly yet

Not that I am aware of, either.
Two months ago, Maclean's ranked Canada’s most dangerous cities for sexual assault.
The Canadian rate is 62 assaults per 100,000 population. Of the 38 large areas that scored above that national average, none have populations of more than one million:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/10/14/sexual-assault/


 
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