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The Khadr Thread

stealthylizard said:
So where are the charges against PMC's, who aren't lawful combatants?
Many of those organizations sometimes have much more strict rules of engagement than a professional military and are paid to protect assets of their clients (facilities, information, people, equipment). Those that did act out of scope will, and have been fined by the ICC. However, because they are considered "Asset Protection"/"Security" they are exempt from many of the same rules and laws that we follow because they are not in theatre to fight the war, they're there to protect their clients' assets from the war. (catch my drift?) Therefore, they are permitted to use lethal force to protect client assets; regardless of whether they are combatants or not. PMCs are not combatants, however they're not unlawful and their operation is not illegal.

Where are the charges against CIA drone operators, who also aren't lawful combatants?
Does that make an A-10 pilot an unlawful combatant then? They are operators, uniformed, belonging to a distinctly identifiable professional military organization with ranks and a chain of command. Distance from the battle or method of payload delivery makes no difference.

They will not face any legal action because of whose side they fight on.  We have private citizens fighting against ISIS as mercenaries.  Will Canada file charges against these individuals?
They're not mercenaries, they're actual members of the Kurdish Peshmerga. If you notice that even on the 1 NAF news releases, they say they are a "english-speaking, unit of the Kurdish Peshmerga". Which makes them also, members of a distinctly identifiable, professional military organization and therefore lawful combatants.
 
The Hague and Geneva Conventions (and other associated works) are written in plain comprehensible language, not impenetrable legalese.  If you want to know who is lawful and who is not, read the Conventions.  Some people have a right to use arms lawfully, and some do not.
 
Blackwater personnel killed 17 Iraqi's and were granted immunity.

A-10 pilot - air force, uniformed military person who would be protected under the Geneva conventions if captured in war
CIA drone operators (not USAF drone operators) -  non-uniformed people who would not be protected under the Geneva conventions if captured in war.  Murder in Violation of the Law of War was rewritten to protect CIA drone operators from that crime.

Yes I realize that since they are half a world away, their capture would be nearly impossible.  But this is what separates lawful combatants, and unlawful combatants. Or rather people protected by the Geneva Conventions, and those that aren't, since unlawful combatant does not exist in the conventions.  Those conventions are what we use to separate lawful and unlawful combatants.

Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must .... wear a "fixed distinctive marking, visible from a distance".  What is this "fixed distinctive marking" that the Peshmerga wear?  The Peshmerga do not have a single standard uniform.

I personally don't care one way or another.  I just think the Khadr trial and his sentencing was a farce.  Based on the same standards, the same could be expanded to anyone not in uniform, but the same standards aren't applied.  The difference being whose side you are fighting on.

 
stealthylizard said:
Blackwater personnel killed 17 Iraqi's and were granted immunity.

A-10 pilot - air force, uniformed military person who would be protected under the Geneva conventions if captured in war
CIA drone operators (not USAF drone operators) -  non-uniformed people who would not be protected under the Geneva conventions if captured in war.  Murder in Violation of the Law of War was rewritten to protect CIA drone operators from that crime.

Do you have supporting evidence to back up your claims? I haven't heard nor read anything saying the any Laws of Armed Conflict or International Conventions of War had been modified or rewritten to suit the "world police" needs of the USA.

Also, the drone strikes are carried out by the USAF, directed by the CIA Drone Program. The CIA does not have its own operators. Therefore, being legal combat.

Edit: Forgot to add, yes Blackwater was granted immunity by the US State Dept., but that does not protect them from prosecution from Iraqi authority or the ICC. However the evidence in that shooting is conflicting. Blackwater had evidence to say their convoy was attacked, but the Iraqi investigation said that they were unprovoked. Now, something in me says that the Iraqi investigation is likely full of crap.

Yes I realize that since they are half a world away, their capture would be nearly impossible.  But this is what separates lawful combatants, and unlawful combatants. Or rather people protected by the Geneva Conventions, and those that aren't, since unlawful combatant does not exist in the conventions.  Those conventions are what we use to separate lawful and unlawful combatants.

Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must .... wear a "fixed distinctive marking, visible from a distance".  What is this "fixed distinctive marking" that the Peshmerga wear?  The Peshmerga do not have a single standard uniform.

I personally don't care one way or another.  I just think the Khadr trial and his sentencing was a farce.  Based on the same standards, the same could be expanded to anyone not in uniform, but the same standards aren't applied.  The difference being whose side you are fighting on.

The Iraqi-Kuridstan Peshmerga wear the flag of Kurdistan. There are other legal military organizations around the world that do not have a single standard uniform.

Let us also note that the Geneva Conventions only apply to conflicts which involve 2 or more sovereign states. Al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIL, etc. are not sovereign states and are not lawful combatants that are obligated to be protected by the Conventions and protocols. HOWEVER, like Canada, most professional militaries will conduct themselves and treat their enemy and civilians in theatre as if the Conventions applied anyway.

That is why taliban captured in Afghanistan were Detainees, not PWs.
 
The Pentagon delayed issuing a 281-page manual laying out commission rules until the eve of the hearing. The reason, officials say, is that government lawyers had been scrambling to rewrite a section about murder because it has implications for the C.I.A. drone program. - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/world/asia/28drones.html?_r=0

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal. - Article 5, Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War

Whether or not they are protected persons under the Geneva Conventions, we are still bound by them, even though the enemy isn't.  They are law.  We don't get to pick and choose which laws to follow.

 
<fact check>
RedcapCrusader said:
Edit: Forgot to add, yes Blackwater was granted immunity by the US State Dept., but that does not protect them from prosecution from Iraqi authority or the ICC. However the evidence in that shooting is conflicting. Blackwater had evidence to say their convoy was attacked, but the Iraqi investigation said that they were unprovoked. Now, something in me says that the Iraqi investigation is likely full of crap.
stealthylizard said:
Blackwater personnel killed 17 Iraqi's and were granted immunity.
At one point, maybe, but not as of a month ago ....
One former employee of the private Blackwater Worldwide security company was sentenced Monday to life in prison and three others to 30 years each behind bars for their roles in a 2007 mass shooting in Baghdad that left 17 people dead.

A federal jury convicted the four in October after a lengthy trial that saw some 30 witnesses travel from Iraq to testify against the security contractors. Prosecutors accused the men of illegally unleashed “powerful sniper fire, machine guns and grenade launchers on innocent men, women and children.”

Senior U.S. District Court Judge Royce Lamberth sentenced Blackwater sniper Nicholas Slatten to a term of life in prison, mandatory for his first-degree murder conviction. Blackwater workers Paul Slough, Evan Liberty and Dustin Heard were sentenced to 30 year each, plus one day.

Slough was convicted of 13 counts of voluntary manslaughter, 17 counts of attempted manslaughter and a firearms offense. The jury convicted Liberty of eight counts of voluntary manslaughter, 12 counts of attempted manslaughter and a firearms offense. Heard was found guilty of six counts of voluntary manslaughter, 11 counts of attempted manslaughter and a firearms offense ....
The man who got life is asking for a new trial.
</fact check>
 
stealthylizard said:
Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must .... wear a "fixed distinctive marking, visible from a distance".  What is this "fixed distinctive marking" that the Peshmerga wear?  The Peshmerga do not have a single standard uniform.

You've left out several key elements covered in GCIII but more importantly there have been significant changes since GCIII. Read the Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions (AP) for more up to date information.

I think you'd be better off to think of a lawful combatant under Art 43 of AP1 as being any individual who is a member of a contracting state or at least a party to the conflict that is subject to international law who has been authorised by the state to conduct hostilities, is subject to a chain of command reporting to the state and which exercises effective control over the individual, who belongs to an organization of a military character, and which organization respects the laws of armed conflict. It's no longer a regular army concept but a controlled, armed organization responsible to and controlled by its government.

Remember too that GCIII dealt with the issue of post WWII and addressed the issues that arose there. AP1 (and 2) was issued in 1977 and dealt with issues of guerilla warfare and national liberation movements that had flourished in the 1950's to 70's. The GWT and its methodologies of conflict are a phenomenon that have arisen after AP1.

Given time perhaps a new protocol will be developed for fighting large scale religious based terrorism.

:cheers:
 
Yes, i left off the rest of the elements of GCIII, because it wasn't relative to the discussion, since all the elements have to be met, not one or two of them to be protected under the conventions.  I admit my lack of knowledge on what changed with the additional protocols.

Sorry, I had to not kept up to date on the Blackwater employees.  I should have searched more indepth.

My knowledge is dated, so I retract my arguments.

My opinion has not changed on the validity of the Khadr trial, so I will leave it at agreeing to disagree.
 
Omar Khadr: Widow, ex-soldier move for final judgment on $134M lawsuit
Court documents filed in Utah same day that Alberta judge released Khadr on bail
By Colin Perkel, The Canadian Press Posted: May 17, 2015
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/omar-khadr-widow-ex-soldier-move-for-final-judgment-on-134m-lawsuit-1.3077608

The widow of an American special forces soldier killed in Afghanistan and another soldier partially blinded by a hand grenade have moved to finalize a default civil-suit judgment against former Guantanamo Bay prisoner Omar Khadr.

Court documents filed in Utah April 24, the day an Alberta court granted Khadr bail, show the plaintiffs are asking the courts to award them triple damages for a total of US$134.1 million.

Lawyer Laura Tanner, who represents Tabitha Speer and Layne Morris, said in an interview she would be filing a final order for the federal judge to review and sign within days.

Once that happens -—final word on damages would be up to the judge — the families can move to have the judgment enforced against Khadr, 28, in a Canadian court.

"It's actually something that gets done pretty regularly," Tanner said from Salt Lake City.

In their lawsuit, Speer and Layne Morris allege Khadr, then 15, was responsible for the death of Sgt. Christopher Speer and Morris's injuries in Afghanistan in July 2002. The suit leans heavily on Khadr's guilty plea to five war crimes before a widely maligned U.S. military commission in Guantanamo Bay in October 2010.

The plea deal included a stipulation of facts in which Khadr admitted among other things to murdering Speer in violation of the rule of war and four other war crimes — although he has since said he only pleaded guilty to get out of American clutches.

Khadr's lawyer, Nate Whitling, called it "unfortunate" his client was unable to retain a lawyer in Utah to defend against a suit he said has no legal merit.
more on link
 
Don't read the comments to the article if you want to keep your sanity. All anti Harper, libtard, Khadr\ terrorist apologists.

In other words, typical Communist Broadcasting Corporation fare. All emotion and no substance.
 
recceguy said:
Don't read the comments to the article if you want to keep your sanity.
A good mental health maintenance tip with many online stories, in fact.
 
Meanwhile, the National Post is reporting today that the restaurant "Joe Beef" in Montreal has been named one of the world's top 100 restaurants. No word specifically though on whether this was "top 100 overall", or just "top 100 amongst restaurants that offer free meals to terrorists/convicted murderers".

I can guarantee that I will never be hungry enough to eat there.
 
This is from the 25 May Kingston Whig-Standard. Today's excellent rebuttal, by the husband of our Chief Clerk, is not yet online. I'll check tomorrow.

http://www.thewhig.com/2015/05/24/letters-to-the-editor-may-25-2

U.S. mishandled Khadr case

Re: "Khadr needs to answer tough questions," May 12.

Candice Malcolm's comment column gets the law wrong and the facts wrong. First, despite Malcolm's insistence he's 28 now, Omar Khadr's present age had no bearing on his status as a child soldier 13 years ago. He was recruited to a non-state force at 15 and according to international law accepted both by the U.S. and Canada was a child soldier to be rehabilitated, not incarcerated and tortured--as he was.

Since May 25, 2000, states (like the U.S. and Canada) may accept volunteers who are 16, but non-state armed forces may not recruit or use under-18s. That's the law. Moreover, had an 18-year-old Khadr been recruited and then captured, according to the Geneva Convention he had to be treated as a prisoner of war and not, as Malcolm pretends, "a plain-clothed unlawful combatant, also known as a terrorist." George Bush's inventive staff came up with the category "unlawful combatant," but irregular forces, militias, and guerrillas if captured must be treated as prisoners of war if they fulfill four conditions (carrying weapons openly, wearing a distinctive badge or mark visible at a distance, having a chain of command, and conducting their operations according to the laws of war). Again, that's the law. The U.S. has not shown the force Khadr belonged to failed to meet those conditions. The court that tried Khadr followed neither the rules of criminal law of the U.S. nor its uniform code of military justice; that court admitted evidence and confessions obtained by torture or under duress and ignored the international convention on child soldiers and the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war. The prosecution claimed, falsely, that Khadr was the only survivor when Sgt. Christopher Speer died. An orderly miss-delivered papers intended for the prosecution and the defense learned that two insurgents were alive at that moment--and that the U.S. had known this all along. Malcolm questions Khadr calling him "Omar" like an elementary school teacher questioning a pupil, but claims we should take off the "kid gloves" in dealing with him--a boy and a man who suffered waterboarding and other tortures from 15 years old on. Kid gloves?! The U.S. is stalling Khadr's appeal hoping that his sentence will run out before the appeal court has to rule on his travesty of a trial. The matter then becomes moot and the U.S. avoids some well-deserved blame.

George Clark, Kingston
 
Loachman said:
This is from the 25 May Kingston Whig-Standard. Today's excellent rebuttal, by the husband of our Chief Clerk, is not yet online. I'll check tomorrow.

http://www.thewhig.com/2015/05/24/letters-to-the-editor-may-25-2

Please do.


I really love the 'apologists' who say there is no proof that Khadr did what he is accused of, yet will boldly accuse the Americans of torturing him with no proof.  If they consider being incarcerated in a military prison torture, then I guess all our thousands of prisoners in various Federal, Provincial and Municipal prisons and jails are also being tortured. 
 
George Wallace said:
Please do.


I really love the 'apologists' who say there is no proof that Khadr did what he is accused of, yet will boldly accuse the Americans of torturing him with no proof.  If they consider being incarcerated in a military prison torture, then I guess all our thousands of prisoners in various Federal, Provincial and Municipal prisons and jails are also being tortured.

There is documented evidence of the US employing techniques that US courts have held are torture.  The President of the US has admitted in public that "we tortured some folks".

The US are torturers: Not apologia; a statement of fact.
 
dapaterson said:
There is documented evidence of the US employing techniques that US courts have held are torture.  The President of the US has admitted in public that "we tortured some folks".

The US are torturers: Not apologia; a statement of fact.

The discussion here is about Omar Khadr not the overall American program.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
The discussion here is about Omar Khadr not the overall American program.
If the lack of torture is mentioned in the thread ....
George Wallace said:
I really love the 'apologists' who say there is no proof that Khadr did what he is accused of, yet will boldly accuse the Americans of torturing him with no proof.
.... a refutation of said statement seems like fair game.  While some say he was tortured, others either feel he wasn't, or that it didn't affect his confession/plea.
 
Interesting take on a "documentary" recently done on Khadr here, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ....
Adrian MacNair: The whitewashing of Omar Khadr
Adrian MacNair, Special to National Post | May 29, 2015 2:39 PM ET

After watching CBC’s new interview and documentary of Omar Khadr I was left feeling sorry for the 28-year-old who was recently freed on bail after 13 years in custody.

And that’s an indication that the journalists who collaborated on this project didn’t do enough to balance the piece objectively.

That’s somewhat surprising, given that the documentary was a collaboration with the Toronto Star’s Michelle Shephard, who authored the 2008 book Guantanamo’s Child: The Untold Story of Omar Khadr. She is one of the few reporters to have reached out for interviews with the widow of one of the soldiers Khadr is alleged to have killed.

Indeed, the piece so strongly advocates for Khadr that it sometimes feels like a public relations piece produced by his lawyer David Edney. Not only are many of the devices used in the segment emotionally manipulative, such as Edney’s wife weeping in the opening, there are no opposing voices beyond stock footage.

Several of Khadr’s former adversaries are rounded up to vouch for his character, such as Damien Corsetti, an American military interrogator who first met Khadr at Bagram. The alleged torture he was subjected to at both that air base and in Guantanamo Bay is a focal point in the piece, portraying his survival under those conditions as being something heroic.

Perhaps the most disturbing part of the documentary is the whitewashing of his family’s history and ties to terrorist groups, suggesting they were little more than aid workers caught up in a turbulent time. In a new interview with Khadr’s mother, Maha Elsamnah, she portrays the family as humanitarian workers who were helping bring medicine to the needy and opening schools for children in Afghanistan.

“After Sept. 11 we were on the run,” she says, without explaining why exactly that would be the case.

Khadr explains he became a translator at the behest of his father. He continues to insist this was his only role even as the documentary airs footage of him preparing improvised explosive devices.

No one asks if he felt making explosives was a bad thing to do, what he thought about his role in the war, or whether he felt uneasy helping what were clearly Islamic Jihadis.

No one inquires whether Khadr thought he was in danger or if he understood the seriousness of his actions. It’s a glaring omission, given that he’s been portrayed as a child soldier who couldn’t have known what he was doing.

The documentary offers a plausible scenario in which he’s not even guilty of the crimes to which he’s already confessed: he admits to throwing a grenade but he’s not sure whether he killed anybody.
Read & Debate

“Nobody claims to have seen me throw the grenade and this soldier testified that couldn’t have been me so I always hold to the hope that maybe my memories were not truth.”

It’s a further disappointment to see that Khadr won’t outright denounce the comments his family made in 2004 following his detention in Guantanamo Bay, when they disparaged Canada and glorified “Jihad.” He refers to his family as “very opinionated” and suggests they should not have said those things publicly, but also takes care not to disagree or censure their viewpoints.

He also describes his father, convicted terrorist Ahmed Said Khadr, as being dedicated to helping the victims of the war in Afghanistan, whitewashing the family’s ties to terrorism and implying the Khadrs aren’t guilty of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Given that many of his defenders in Canada insist he was a child soldier brainwashed by his terrorist father, it would have been nice to hear what Omar had to say about all this. If his father wasn’t a terrorist after all, how did he get brainwashed?

What did your father tell you? Did you believe in Islamic Jihad? What do you think about radical Islam? Did you or do you support the efforts of the Taliban or Al Qaeda? Were you aware you were engaged as an unlawful enemy combatant in Afghanistan? Do you think your improvised explosive devices may have harmed innocent people?

None of these questions are asked. Nor are hundreds of others that still leave Canadians wondering. Most importantly, is he sorry? Putting aside the question of his guilt or innocence, whether he was a child soldier, or whether his father brainwashed him, is this 28-year-old man apologetic or remorseful for any of his actions?

Despite the lack of tough questions, or perhaps because of it, Khadr is convincing. He comes off as warm and genuine. It’s difficult to tell on camera whether it’s all an act, but there are strong hints that it is not.

When police officers arrive suddenly at his door his body language changes immediately from comfortable to tense and alert.

Based on my impressions of the short interviews he’s given, Khadr doesn’t seem like a threat to Canadians. Which may be the point of Edney allowing access to his client like this. He also makes the point that if he were going to be radicalized, the best place for it would have been Guantanamo Bay. He hints that he does not share views of his family, nor will he be influenced by their ideology.

“If anything they are going to be affected by me and not the other way around.”

As if to prove a point the camera zooms in on a scene where he’s eating ham at the breakfast table.

I’d like to believe that’s the truth. I think we all would.

 
I am sure that heads are exploding in some camps today.  Shared under the fair dealings provision of the copyright act.

Omar Khadr lawsuit: U.S. soldiers awarded $134M US by default

The Associated Press Posted: Jul 02, 2015 12:13 PM MT| Last Updated: Jul 02, 2015 1:03 PM MT


A U.S. federal judge in Utah has awarded a $134.2 million US default judgment in a lawsuit filed on behalf of two U.S.
soldiers against Omar Khadr.

Lawyer Laura Tanner says that collecting the award from Khadr, 28, could be a challenge, but she's looking for a Canadian law firm to help begin the process.

The judge decided by default after the suit got no answer from Khadr, who was released from a Canadian prison last month.

Khadr pleaded guilty to committing war crimes in Afghanistan in 20012 when he was 15. He admitted throwing a grenade that killed U.S. solider Christopher Speer and injured Layne Morris, but his attorney Dennis Edney, later said Khadr pleaded guilty under duress and that there's no evidence he committed the crime.

Khadr spent 10 years in the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and was transferred to an Edmonton prison in 2012. He was released on bail in May of this year.

© The Associated Press, 2015

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/omar-khadr-lawsuit-u-s-soldiers-awarded-134m-us-by-default-1.3135963
 
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