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The Khadr Thread

George Wallace

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jmt18325 said:
The precedent has nothing to do with the cheque, but rather the court decisions related to people like Khadr and Arar.  The court decisions are what placed an obligation for reparations on the government.  Yes, the Harper government chose Arar's reparations, and yes, the Trudeau government chose Khadr's, but that's not the central issue.  It's about abuse of rights and abuse of process.  If the courts see that, we're in trouble.


And?

The article tells of Canadians who have departed to fight for ISIS......When we repatriate them, and judge them to have had their Charter of Rights violated by any capturing forces, do we pay out another $10.5 million per head?  By your argument; we do.
 

jmt18325

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George Wallace said:
The article tells of Canadians who have departed to fight for ISIS......When we repatriate them, and judge them to have had their Charter of Rights violated by any capturing forces, do we pay out another $10.5 million per head?  By your argument; we do.

That's not actually what it says at all. 
 

Loachman

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jmt18325 said:
The precedent has nothing to do with the cheque

Yes, it has.

That amount was obscene, and unnecessary.
 

The Bread Guy

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George Wallace said:
... Who cut the cheque?  The Trudeau Liberals did. 

Don't try to tell me, or anyone, that the Supreme Court did.  They did NOT.  They only ruled that his Rights were violated.  Trudeau cut the cheque and had two flunkies do the apology ...[/url]
Chief Stoker said:
He ordered the check to be cut, he had them pay it out quickly so the widow of his victim couldn't get an injunction, he didn't have the guts to fight for what was right even though the majority of his citizens didn't agree with the payout ...
... all because of mistakes made by both Team Red & Team Blue governments before him -  sorta like the reminders around here that the NVC was a Team Red mistake (even after it was approved unanimously by a Team Blue government). #NoShortageOfBlameToGoAround
George Wallace said:
......When we repatriate them, and judge them to have had their Charter of Rights violated by any capturing forces, do we pay out another $10.5 million per head?  ...
Or they could be brought back to Canada, tried under our own terrorism laws/due process, thus avoiding potential problems?
 

Good2Golf

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Any organization can set, or reinforce a precedent within its area of responsibility.

The Supreme Court of Canada could, with Khadr, be said to have reinforced a precedent it set with Arar regarding the finding that a Canadian citizen's rights and freedoms were infringed upon.

The difference is that Arar was entirely without own fault for his predicament.  Khadr, not so.

The other difference is the Government's Executive branch did not wait for the Legislative branch's position to run its course through the legal system, effectively and rather ironically truncating the due process of Canadian law and its application.

Additionally, the Executive, contrary to what the ruling party stated ad nauseam about transparency etc..., deliberately through its actions, stole from Canadians, the Representative function to have discourse on an important issue that many if not most Canadians clearly feel quite strongly about.  Announcement made late on a Friday afternoon in the post-Parliamentary session period...classic "Joe and Jane Canuck will forget about this by Monday morning as they come back from the cottage and get a Timmies double-double before work."

So of the three tenets of Canadian democracy, the Legislative branch gets shortchanged, the Representative branch entire subverted and the Executive branch playing the "we pre-judged the Court's outcome and saved Canadians money" card.

Sunny ways indeed.


Regards
G2G
 

The Bread Guy

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Good2Golf said:
... the Executive, contrary to what the ruling party stated ad nauseam about transparency etc..., deliberately through its actions, stole from Canadians, the Representative function to have discourse on an important issue that many if not most Canadians clearly feel quite strongly about.  Announcement made late on a Friday afternoon in the post-Parliamentary session period...classic "Joe and Jane Canuck will forget about this by Monday morning as they come back from the cottage and get a Timmies double-double before work." ...
Announced in a cowardly fashion?  No question  :nod:
Good2Golf said:
... the Representative branch entire subverted ...
This apology wasn't done in the House of Commons, even after the then-PM said he wouldn't apologize.  Even though a lot of executive actions don't have to go that route, it would have been more transparent & convincing - especially if the boss himself makes the announcement, as was done in the example apology.
Good2Golf said:
... the Government's Executive branch did not wait for the Legislative branch's position to run its course through the legal system, effectively and rather ironically truncating the due process of Canadian law and its application ...
... which mirrors how other previous Executives/Cabinets (Red & Blue) denied the courts a chance do their job by not bringing Khadr back to face Canadian law in Canada courts.  Canadian courts could have led to fewer mistakes & rights issues, and no settlement - just jail time.*
* - Admitting my crystal ball's no better than others' here.
 

McG

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George Wallace said:
With the Khadr case now as a precedence, what kind of can of worms shall we expect from the Trudeau Government when this comes to fruition: LINK
Given that the $10.5 million pay-out was a political precedence and it is really only legal precedent that is binding, I think Canada does have options.  We could seek to repatriate captured Canadians and tried them under Canadian laws. But, I don't think the legal precedence says we have to do that; I think the legal precedence actually leaves the timing and decision on repatriation to the executive.  What the legal precedence tells us is what we cannot do, and that is we cannot be complicit in acts which by Canadian standards would be judged as torture.  So we can neither conduct nor encourage torture, and we cannot directly exploit the "benefits" of torture we know to be happening (so, no interviews/interrogations inside of a captor's sleep deprivation regime).  I would assume the government must also take reasonable steps to protect against torture commensurate to any reasonable expectation that torture will occur.  Had the Khadr claim gone all the way to conclusion at the supreme court, we might have been provided a little more legal definition to apply in defining new cases in Iraq.  But really, we already have a system in place to do what is required; it is just a matter of treating these individuals like every/any other Canadian arrested abroad: https://travel.gc.ca/assistance/emergency-info/arrest-detention
If a Canadian citizen is arrested and detained abroad, Canadian officials abroad can:
  • ask the appropriate authorities for immediate and regular access to you
  • ...
  • advocate for your fair and equal treatment under local laws
  • advocate to ensure that your health and well-being are protected, including basic nutrition, medical and dental care
  • transmit concerns through official channels about any treatment that could affect your health and well-being to local officials and prison representatives
  • ...
  • undertake clemency intervention if you are charged or convicted of a crime punishable by death
  • inform you of transfer of offender options – either by treaty or by administrative arrangement with the country where you are imprisoned – that may allow you to serve your sentence in a Canadian prison and provide you with the documents to apply for a transfer if you are eligible
...

If your international human rights are known to have been violated, the Government of Canada may take steps to pressure the foreign authorities to abide by their international human rights obligations and provide basic minimum standards of protection.

...
From what I have read, there seems to be a feeling in Iraq that if you want to go into that country to do violence against the country, then you are going to be tried by their courts.  I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation on the part of Iraq.  Canadian courts have already identified that the if/when of repatriation is an executive prerogative.  Selection of the most appropriate tools from the diplomatic tool box (which includes everything up to military force) must also be an executive prerogative when engaging a sovereign state on the protection of a Canadian citizen in detention.  I think Iraq is going to decide for us that Canadian (and any other nation's citizens) will stay in Iraq to receive their justice.  We will go forward keeping the detention of Canadian citizens under a microscope and exercising what influence we need/can to ensure those Canadians are treated humanely. 
 

Wookilar

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I'm tending to agree with you. We have a long tradition of letting convicted drug smugglers rot away in SEA countries, I don't see where being convicted of any other serious crime would be any different .... as long as those crimes are processed through a judicial/law structure set down by a sovereign nation and not some kangaroo court hidden away on some extra-territoriality rock in the middle of the ocean.
 

a_majoor

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I'm still baffled by the idea that people who take up arms against Canada and her allies have any "rights" or claims against Canada at all, and that we have any "obligations" to people who fight against Canada and her allies outside of our LOAC responsibilities.
 

Wookilar

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When a group of Iraqi bureaucrats came to Canada to examine our federal system (2007?), they were absolutely baffled that the Bloc were a federally funded political party (and that the military really does listen to the politicians). They were amazed at how our constitution was applied, across the board.

On the legal side of the house, I honestly don't see this as any different from any other criminal case. There have been many cases where "criminals" of all stripes get various restitution based on how their rights/freedoms were trampled on.
 

Loachman

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Wookilar said:
There have been many cases where "criminals" of all stripes get various restitution based on how their rights/freedoms were trampled on.

How many got $10.5M for not being allowed a nap before and a lawyer during an interrogation?
 

Stoker

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People are up in arms because that little turd was kept awake calling it torture. I wonder if John McCain's 6 years in the Hanoi Hilton is similar? I bet he never got 10.5 million. That little shit don't know what torture is.
 

shawn5o

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George Wallace said:
With the Khadr case now as a precedence, what kind of can of worms shall we expect from the Trudeau Government when this comes to fruition:

Andrew Gowing, a spokesman for Public Safety Canada, said the government would not speculate on what it would do with any captured Canadians, but said all citizens have a right to consular assistance.

babies born in the Middle East to at least one parent who is a Canadian citizen would automatically be Canadian themselves, Gowing said.



"Watch and Shoot!"

I guess Gowing didn't get the memo about the "Lost Canadians", eh

The lost Canadians are still waiting for their recognition but because they're not from the Middle East they don't count, right
 

shawn5o

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jmt18325 said:
The precedent has nothing to do with the cheque, but rather the court decisions related to people like Khadr and Arar.  The court decisions are what placed an obligation for reparations on the government.  Yes, the Harper government chose Arar's reparations, and yes, the Trudeau government chose Khadr's, but that's not the central issue.  It's about abuse of rights and abuse of process.  If the courts see that, we're in trouble.

Oh sweet Lord. What abuse of rights? And abuse of process? Give me a break
 

Loachman

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/medic-account-omar-khadr-1.4218853

U.S. Army medic has no regrets about saving Omar Khadr's life

'There's more to this story than just talking points,' former medic Donnie Bumanglag says

By Colin Perkel, The Canadian Press  Posted: Jul 24, 2017 12:27 PM ET| Last Updated: Jul 24, 2017 2:13 PM ET

For years the battle-hardened and decorated American veteran wrestled with his conscience, with whether he'd done the right thing in saving the life of Omar Khadr, seen by many as a terrorist who profited from his crimes.

Now, watching the furor over the government's $10.5-million payout to Khadr from afar, Donnie Bumanglag wants to tell his story, offer a perspective born of bitter experience - one he admits may not be popular with many Canadians, or even some of his own former comrades in arms.

Bumanglag, of Lompoc, Calif., 36, has spent years coming to terms with his former life as an elite airborne medic supporting U.S. special forces during three missions to Afghanistan and Iraq. He's been haunted by flashbacks, frequently thrown back to that time in the summer of 2002, when he spent hours in the back of a helicopter frantically working on Khadr, then 15 years old and at the very edge of death.

"This is a human life. This is war. This is something that most people can't fathom, and they want to be real quick to give an opinion just because it makes them feel good about themselves," Bumanglag said. "[But] there's more to this story than just talking points."

Bumanglag gave a series of interviews to The Canadian Press, and recounted details about saving Khadr on a podcast he co-hosts.

Khadr resembled medic's relative

Doc Buma, as the 21-year-old Ranger medic was known, was looking forward to leaving the remote area of Afghanistan in which he had been operating for more than a month and heading to Bagram for a shower and some downtime before redeploying to Kandahar.

Instead, as they flew toward Bagram that day in July 2002, a distress call came in with orders to pick up an "enemy fighter" who had been shot. The MH-53 helicopter veered toward Khost and an encounter that would stay with him for years.

With the chopper gunners providing covering fire, they landed in a field. With Bumanglag trailing Edmund Sealey, the Rangers platoon sergeant, they threaded their way through a suspected minefield, down a road, and connected with a group of U.S. special forces soldiers.

On what appeared to be a wooden door lay the wounded enemy fighter, shot twice by one of the elite Delta forces. The soldiers had found the casualty barely alive in a compound the Americans had pounded to rubble during a massive assault. One of their own, Sgt. Chris Speer, had been fatally hit by a grenade, and another, Layne Morris, blinded in one eye. It was apparent to the incoming medic that the Delta soldiers were in "some pretty severe distress" over the loss of their comrade.

"There's a look on somebody's face when the whole world went to shit 10 minutes ago and it's too much to process," Bumanglag says.

As he recalls, the soldiers gave him bare-bones biographical data on the casualty: The fighter had killed Speer. He was a Canadian who had been Osama bin Laden's "houseboy." They also told him to keep the high-value detainee alive because he would be a vital source of information and passed him off.

Bumanglag was now charged with saving Khadr, son of a high-ranking member of al-Qaeda. He didn't know Khadr was 15 years old, but his youth struck him.

"I don't know if I can call him a little kid but he sure looked little to me. He's 80 pounds or something. He's a little guy who's on a door, basically," Bumanglag says.

Fraught helicopter ride

They moved the patient up the ramp and the chopper took off. The medic immediately began working to save the boy, who was covered in blood and sand.

"Omar, with gunshot wounds and flex cuffs like an animal had been shot, didn't look human," Bumanglag recalls. "But moving in closer and working on him as a patient and seeing the facial features and seeing the skin pigmentation, those images always stuck with me."

Khadr, it turned out, bore a striking resemblance to one of Bumanglag's cousins, which bothered the young medic then, and for years after.

"All I seen was a kid that looks like a kid that I knew."

As the chopper bobbed and weaved toward Bagram, Doc Buma worked to stabilize his disoriented, barely conscious patient, who was writhing and moaning in pain. At the other soldiers' insistence, Khadr's hands remained handcuffed behind his back out of concern he might turn violent.

Bumanglag's main task was to deal with Khadr's two gaping bullet exit wounds on his chest. His head raced with thoughts about whether he should save the life of this "terrorist," whether he'd have enough medical supplies for his own guys should something happen. He even pondered pushing the enemy fighter out the chopper and being done with it.

"He's rocking his body around everywhere," he says. "I took it as aggression. You get this idea that everybody is jihad and they're going to fight to the death."

Then there was his ego, he admits: the notion that saving this captive would earn him praise, would show he had what it took. So he kept working, trying to staunch the bleeding.

'There was no politics in it then'

"My mission, my job was just to save him, keep him alive. There was no politics in it then. I was a young Ranger and this was my chance," Bumanglag says. "I worked on him for over two hours in the back of a helicopter as the sun went down. At the end, I'm working under finger light."

He kept working, and Khadr kept living, not saying anything, just making noises.

"His body indicated that he was a pretty brave guy. He fought for his life just as much as we fought to save him," Bumanglag says. "Some people have a will to live and some people don't. He definitely did."

Life was hanging in balance

They finally touched down at Bagram.

"We plugged all the holes and we tried to keep things viable," he says. "I pass him off and I don't know whether he's going to live or die."

What he did know was that Khadr hadn't died on his watch and it was therefore mission accomplished - one for which he would later be commended for by his superiors. It would take another year or so before Bumanglag learned that Khadr had survived.

Omar Khadr, born in September 1986 in Toronto, spent several months recovering from his wounds at Bagram, where, from the moment he was conscious and able to speak, he was interrogated by the Americans.

A few months later, in October 2002, he was transferred to Guantanamo Bay. He had just turned 16.

It was in his early days at the infamous U.S. military prison in Cuba that Canadian intelligence officers went down to interrogate him. The Americans made the interviews conditional on having the information he provided passed on to them. The Canadians also knew the teen had been subjected to the "frequent flyer program," a brutal process of sleep deprivation designed to soften him up.

Video would surface years later of a weeping teen, now realizing the Canadian agents weren't there to help him, whimpering for his mother.

Khadr ultimately pleaded guilty to five war crimes in 2010 before a widely discredited military commission. He later disavowed his confession to having killed Speer, saying it was the only way the Americans would return him to Canada, which happened in 2012.

The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the federal government had violated Khadr's rights. The ruling underpinned the recent settlement of his lawsuit in which Ottawa apologized to him and, sources said, paid him $10.5 million.

"If you say you'd go through what he went through for $10 million, you're out of your mind, and that's the truth," Bumanglag says.

Khadr has said he no longer remembers the firefight and would not comment on Bumanglag's account.

Doubts Khadr could have split from father

Doc Buma returned to his native California and left the military in 2003. He became a police officer, working anti-narcotics, for almost 10 years. Ultimately, the flashbacks, the post-traumatic stress, bested him and he retired as a cop about five years ago. He studied educational psychology, he said, as part of trying to sort himself out.

He took up co-hosting a podcast, Sick Call, in which he and a fellow vet talk about a variety of issues, including topics related to the military and law enforcement. In one recent episode, he talks about Khadr. It's all part educating others, part therapy for himself, he says.

The years since his days in the military, when he was ready to drop everything at a moment's notice and heed the call of duty wherever it took him, he says, have afforded him time to grow up, to gain some perspective on war, on his life as a soldier, on demonizing people he has never met or with whom he has no personal quarrel.

"I've been on the worst combat missions. I bought into the ideology. Now it's time for reflection," he says.

Time and again, he is careful to make clear he intends no disrespect to Speer's relatives or to Morris and empathizes with what they have lost.

"Omar lost his eye, too. I don't know how much more symbolic that can be."

At the same time, he is clear that Speer and Morris were grown men who had signed on the line to become elite professional soldiers, knowing the risks of their jobs.

On the other hand, Bumanglag also makes it clear he empathizes with the young Canadian who was taken by his father to another country and thrown into an ideologically motivated war over which he had no control.

No walking away from Afghan compound

As a married father of four, Bumanglag says it's naive to believe Khadr could somehow have just walked away from the compound his father had sent him to. More to the point, he says, had he found himself as Khadr did that fateful day in July - under heavy bombardment with the fighting men dead and the enemy closing in for the kill, he likely would not have hesitated to throw a grenade.

"What happens if the shoe is on the other foot? This is the scenario that I've played in my head," Bumanglag says, his mind turning to those who are furious at the Canadian government's settlement with Khadr.

"They can be upset but the reality is that they don't understand the full story. I don't think any of us do."

Doc Buma says he no longer frets that he should have let Khadr die.

"Everybody may hate him but I'm glad I saved his life," he says. "It just wasn't his time then."

© The Canadian Press, 2017
 

jmt18325

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shawn5o said:
Oh sweet Lord. What abuse of rights? And abuse of process? Give me a break

The ones that were ruled to have happened by the courts.  Your sweet lord has nothing to do with it.
 

George Wallace

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Wookilar said:
On the legal side of the house, I honestly don't see this as any different from any other criminal case. There have been many cases where "criminals" of all stripes get various restitution based on how their rights/freedoms were trampled on.

Yes.  One of the faults of our Legal System is that the criminals have more Rights than the Victims. 
 

George Wallace

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jmt18325 said:
The ones that were ruled to have happened by the courts.  Your sweet lord has nothing to do with it.

Actually ruled to have allegedly happened.  Show me the proof that he was indeed tortured.
 

jmt18325

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George Wallace said:
Actually ruled to have allegedly happened.  Show me the proof that he was indeed tortured.

If I said torture, I didn't mean to say torture.  It was mistreatment and abuse of process.
 
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