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The Great Gun Control Debate

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zipperhead_cop

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Police are not the natural enemies of gun owners.  Doubtless, there are stories that would suggest that some people have gotten screwed around and had their guns seized.  AS A GENERALITY IN MY EXPERIENCE many stories that make it into the news (I'm not just referring to guns, but all police related stories) rarely have the back ground and sub text to fully explain what was actually going on at a call.  And of course, the guy that gets his guns taken is going to candy coat the story so he gets sympathy.  Everyone does that.
Sometimes guns get grabbed up from something like a domestic assault, because none of us wants to see someone get blown away at that house after we are gone.  Yes, people kill each other with lots of things.  I am not blaming guns for any sort of domestic violence escalation.  But IMO there is something that is just slightly more difficult with using a hand weapon or brute physical force than the couple of pounds it takes to pull off a shot.  Might that bit of hesitation save someones life?  Hard to say.  However, that is where the legal system comes in, and people can appeal to get back weapons that have been taken.  As many of you have quite a bit of info on guns in Canada, does anyone know any sort of stats on how many guns are returned after being taken for a public safety seizure?  I would be curious how many actually get back to the owners after the incidents have been resolved. 
 

Colin Parkinson

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ZC
You are right:
Police are not the natural enemies of gun owners
They were made to be by the Liberals. Most police officers who don't shoot recreational are stunningly ignorant of the Firearms Act and the only thing they know about firearms is what is taught at depot or the JI. This makes them prime candidates for the social message "Civilian ownership of firearms is bad". I also have seen veteran cops counsel young people looking for a career as a police officer being told not to let the department know about their interest in firearms. I know it is impossible to remember every Act, but one would hope they take the time to learn the very basic information. In example, after the stopping of the natives on Burrard street bridge, the cop that interviewed the store owner could not apparently grasp the differnaces in the transportation of restricted and non-restricted firearm. (in fact that whole scene was bizzare, why allow them to legally buy the guns, transfer ownership through the CFC and then arrest them minutes later?)

  It does not help that so much of a cop's interaction with the public is on the negative side, it is easy to forget that there are many law abiding citizens who they don't get to meet regularly through their work to help balance out their views. That is not a slight on LEO's but a comment on human nature, the rationalizing that many cops do is a form of armour to protect themselves from a job that can have many different stresses.

What I do is carry a copy of the firearms Act and the "cheat sheet" used by police, in case I get pulled over and the officer is misinformed. The good ones will read the information and make the correct judgement, the bad ones on a ego trip who don't bother to read the information and make the wrong judgement, I guess their department is getting sued.


For Sig guy, no agenda here.....

Mayor David Miller re-iterated the need to toughen up gun laws.

"We know where the guns come from," Miller said. "Half come across the border, sometimes more than half. We need real action on border security.

"And the second thing we need is to take care of our own house. Handguns are still legal in Canada, partially, and we've got to make them completely illegal."
 

Fishbone Jones

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ZC,

No matter what a couple here would have everyone believe, no one here is calling all LEO incompetent or drachonian. As in all walks of life some people are just better informed than others, on different subjects.

As for your other question. I don't know that those stats would be available. Our municipal firearms officer would probably know for our area though. I'd be interested too. I don't think it's as simplistic as just getting them back. In many cases it takes lawyers and fees to ensure that the property is returned in a timely manner. A lot of times they aren't stored or handled properly and are damaged as a result.
 

Fry

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zipperhead_cop said:
Police are not the natural enemies of gun owners.  Doubtless, there are stories that would suggest that some people have gotten screwed around and had their guns seized.  AS A GENERALITY IN MY EXPERIENCE many stories that make it into the news (I'm not just referring to guns, but all police related stories) rarely have the back ground and sub text to fully explain what was actually going on at a call.  And of course, the guy that gets his guns taken is going to candy coat the story so he gets sympathy.  Everyone does that.
Sometimes guns get grabbed up from something like a domestic assault, because none of us wants to see someone get blown away at that house after we are gone.  Yes, people kill each other with lots of things.  I am not blaming guns for any sort of domestic violence escalation.  But IMO there is something that is just slightly more difficult with using a hand weapon or brute physical force than the couple of pounds it takes to pull off a shot.  Might that bit of hesitation save someones life?  Hard to say.  However, that is where the legal system comes in, and people can appeal to get back weapons that have been taken.  As many of you have quite a bit of info on guns in Canada, does anyone know any sort of stats on how many guns are returned after being taken for a public safety seizure?  I would be curious how many actually get back to the owners after the incidents have been resolved. 

I agree with what you have to say. No need to defend yourself for being a police officer, one or two may have made the thread take that stance however I'm confident most of us do not feel that the police are the problem here.

I'm curious, and (since you're a police officer ZC), when there is a domestic dispute, are all nearby objects/tools taken? Or just firearms? I'm referring a particular item such knives, either butcher or basic kitchen cutlery. What about baseball bats, fire pokers or other possible lethal weapons within a home? If the situation is heated enough for someone to want to shoot someone, I think that (in 99% times) a knife is within very easy access in the average home and could also be used very quickly. Without having to unlock it, retrieve it, load it, aim and fire, to me it seems just as dangerous as a firearm. Given the fact of quick access, (especially when an individual is extremely angry and enraged) it opens the possibility  of a 'grab n stab' incident.

Just curious if it's a common occurance for LEOs to empty the kitchen drawers when the situation is dangerous enough to warrant confiscation of firearms.
 

Hawk

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Just a post so it comes up and I can follow the debate. I have very little of value to add, but I'm interested. For the record, I disagree with gun control. Please carry on the debate, and pretend I'm not here -

:cdn:
Hawk
 

McG

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Handgun ban wouldn't make streets safer: Day
Updated Mon. Jul. 23 2007 8:28 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day says banning handguns would not make Canadian streets safer, despite countering statements made earlier by Toronto's mayor and Ontario's attorney general.

Day's comment comes in the aftermath of the weekend murder of a Toronto boy who was caught in the crossfire of a gang shootout.

"We have looked at other jurisdictions that have put in bans on handguns, and it has not reduced crime with firearms, crime with handguns," Day told CTV Newsnet in an interview from Kelowna, B.C. on Monday.

"What does reduce crime with firearms, what is effective, is to have more officers on the street, which we are funding at the federal level -- a more aggressive approach to gun-smuggling."

Day said the message needs to get out on the street that those caught committing crimes with firearms face mandatory jail time.

"That's the way to reduce gun crime. That's what we want to see happen," said Day, who added that it won't happen unless the Conservative government gets the support of the Opposition Liberals.

"They're not supporting us on this area of getting tougher on gun crime."

Earlier in the day, Toronto Mayor David Miller said the death of 11-year-old Ephraim Brown is yet another wakeup call that there are too many handguns on Canadian streets. He said it's time the Conservatives took action by outlawing handguns completely, and by standing up against U.S. gun laws.

"It's within the hands of the prime minister, but I really believe it's time for the Canadian government at a national level, to say to the United States of America: 'We're good friends, but your gun laws are exporting a problem to our country. It's not acceptable anymore, and you need to take action."

Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant said he will push Prime Minister Stephen Harper to ban handguns, tighten up the gun registry and put into place safe storage rules.

"Some people will point out that gun crime is down in Toronto," he said. "Tell that to the family of the 11-year-old who died of a gunshot. We had a weekend of tragedies. We have to redouble our efforts. We have to continue that work tonight, tomorrow and hereafter."

Day said the current law allows only target shooters and "certain types of collectors" to acquire handguns. He said there needs to be an aggressive approach to gun smuggling. "That's where the problem comes, not the target shooters who are the law-abiding citizens, but the illegal ones. That's where we need to see the focus."

Day said the Conservatives government, which has repeatedly painted the Liberals as being "soft on crime," said there is also comprehensive plan to address the root causes of crime.

"I just announced recently $16.1 million to go into programs to reach out to youth at risk -- communities where there seems to be a higher precedence of this type of activity, looking at families that are vulnerable," he said.

"We also have to reach out -- there's not just the long arm of the law but the open arms of the community. We have to use that also in terms to have an effective process of seeing gun crime go down and offering young people better choices."
Article & comments here:  http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070723/day_reax_070723/20070723?hub=Canada

Justice minister ponders knife law; Police chief's request for minimum sentences grabs attention
Frank Armstrong
Local News - Saturday, July 21, 2007 @ 00:00

Canada's federal justice minister said yesterday he will consider a request by the city's police chief to bring about knife crime legislation, but he said he can make no promises.

In an interview with the Whig-Standard, Justice Minister Robert Nicholson said Parliament already has a lot of crime-related legislation that is waiting to become law.

There are now 13 bills before Parliament, all of which are meant to help reduce crime in communities, Nicholson said.

One of the higher-profile bills will provide mandatory prison terms for people convicted of crimes involving guns. That bill is stuck in the Senate.

"We're having a difficult time getting through anything and it seems to be we would have a tougher time getting a mandatory minimum for knives," Nicholson said.

At Thursday's police services board meeting, the board voted to send a resolution by Kingston Police Chief Bill Closs to the provincial and national police services board bodies and to the federal government. The resolution asks the government to recognize the seriousness of knife crimes and the apparent rise in such crimes in Canada.

The resolution pointed out that Canadians are far more likely to be assaulted by someone with a knife than someone with a gun.
http://www.thewhig.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=621964&catname=Local+News
 

zipperhead_cop

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Fry said:
Just curious if it's a common occurance for LEOs to empty the kitchen drawers when the situation is dangerous enough to warrant confiscation of firearms.

Yes Fry, we do just that.  After a domestic, a house looks much like an empty warehouse.  Not only do we take the entire kitchen, we take the furniture (throwable), shut off the electricity, snuff out the pilot light for the furnace and water and encase all parties in industrial bubble wrap.  ::)
Obviously, anything can be used as a weapon, and I think that was your point.  Once you get a badge, and are on the street I would be interested if your view changes at all.  Walking out of a house knowing that you have done everything you could to make things a bit better and safer is what we try to do at every call.  Also knowing that if things do turn sour at some point, is anyone going to be able to come back at us with any sort of recrimination.  I'm not saying you should do anything differently, just that you might see things through a more badgy [made up word] view.

As of today, Windsor has a serial killer.  He is on the run, and killed a completely innocent couple a ways from here in order to steal their truck.  He also stole two long guns from the house, and told his mother that he plans to commit "suicide by cop".  Those weapons didn't do much to help the people that are dead now, and will possibly be used to try to kill me or one of my brothers/sisters.  Does that change anything with regards to this debate?  Not really.  But I have to drive towards the sounds of the shots.  At that point, I will not care if they are full auto, proper length, properly stored ammo, had certificates with them, had over cap magazines or whatnot.  I'll be dealing with a murderer, and honestly won't give a rats ass about any of this discussion.  That is why I get kind of pissed off with the undercurrent of "bad police" that invariably comes out when these things come up. 
Enjoy your hobby.  Just don't make it anyone elses problem. 
 

Colin Parkinson

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Perhaps if we had "castle doctrine" and CCW that same serial killer would be now dead instead of his victims. Our current laws prevent people from protecting their selves and their firearms. Not to mention the creation of the ultimate "shopping list" How much do you want to bet that organized crime has access to the CFC database?

Being a cop in a democracy will always be tough, but if you spent time in countries where the police can do as they please, believe me you will take the open society. The police in this country would be a lot safer and less stressed if the courts would actually lock up the real bad guys and keep them locked up. Not to mention reopen some of the facilities for the mentally handicapped instead of having them on the streets.

I also find it interesting that the groups normally pushing for gun bans are also the same ones who create the demand for recreational drugs which fuels most of the violence which they find shocking, I guess they need to find an outlet for their guilt.
 

zipperhead_cop

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Colin P said:
Being a cop in a democracy will always be tough, but if you spent time in countries where the police can do as they please, believe me you will take the open society. The police in this country would be a lot safer and less stressed if the courts would actually lock up the real bad guys and keep them locked up. Not to mention reopen some of the facilities for the mentally handicapped instead of having them on the streets.

Now that I completely agree with. 
And it would not surprise me if the data base was comprimised.  I take dim consolation that as a generality, the mid to high level organized crime guys have their own sources, and won't need to do petty B&E's to get a chunk.  :p
 

zipperhead_cop

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Colin P said:
Glad we can find some common ground.

Of course.  How else could I lure you into a false sense of trust in order to better seize on the moment you leave a gun out, thus enabling me to seize your cache of dirty guns and ensuring my advancement to sergeant?  :dontpanic:
 

Fry

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Since handguns are 'restricted' and apparently only useful for target practice... who would like to see handgun hunting? I know it's pretty popular in the USA. Why not here in Canada? There are an assortment of pistols and revolvers more than capable of doing the job. I know you don't NEED to use them for hunting... same could be argued for singleshot long guns... we could all use spears. Well, once they're registered and the government issues transport permits for them.  ::)

What do you all think?
 

Colin Parkinson

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zipperhead_cop said:
Of course.  How else could I lure you into a false sense of trust in order to better seize on the moment you leave a gun out, thus enabling me to seize your cache of dirty guns and ensuring my advancement to sergeant?   :dontpanic:

As long as it does not require rubber gloves and KY!!  :eek:
 

KevinB

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FWIW - I'd rather have legal CCW in Canada than handgun hunting...

ZC -- if you need help I'm on leave and could roll out with the "Arsenal of Democracy"tm to assist LE in the hunt (well okay I found a use for handgun hunting, but honestly I would rather use a long gun)
 

zipperhead_cop

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Infidel-6 said:
FWIW - I'd rather have legal CCW in Canada than handgun hunting...

ZC -- if you need help I'm on leave and could roll out with the "Arsenal of Democracy"tm to assist LE in the hunt (well okay I found a use for handgun hunting, but honestly I would rather use a long gun)

Hell, come to Windsor with Claymores.  I'll show you where to set them up.  But if you are talking about the fugitive, no one is too sure where he is at right now.

 

old medic

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The two yellow highlights are my own.

Wed, July 25, 2007
Missing the target on gun crime

By Lorrie Goldstein
http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Commentary/2007/07/25/4366146.html

Last week, Statistics Canada reported the national crime rate last year dipped to its lowest level in more than a quarter century.

Apparently, no one told the gun-toting thugs who murdered an 11-year-old boy in Toronto last weekend along with three other people, fatally shot a 37-year-old man in broad daylight on a Halifax residential street and wounded four others inside a Winnipeg nightclub.

By the way, that drop in the crime rate? Actually, as StatsCan noted, that was "driven by a decline in non-violent crime."

Meanwhile, violent crime, remained "virtually unchanged" from 2005. While the murder rate dipped 10% after two years of increases, "increases were reported in many serious violent crimes such as attempted murder, aggravated assault, assault with a weapon, robbery and kidnapping/forcible confinement."

In Toronto, in addition to four people shot to death over 24 hours last weekend, seven more were wounded (five shot, two stabbed), provoking cries from the city's left-wing mayor and the province's Liberal attorney-general for a federal handgun ban. A-G Michael Bryant accused the federal Conservatives of being in the "holster" of the gun lobby.

Right. For those who think "banning" handguns -- which are already banned except for target shooters and collectors -- will stop gun crime, some observations from Conservative MP Garry Breitkreuz, perhaps Canada's most informed critic on these issues.

As he noted in a recent parliamentary debate, of the 5,194 homicides in Canada between 1997 and 2005, 118, or 2.27% were committed with a registered gun, 63, or 1.21%, were committed with a gun registered to the accused murderer and 111, or 2.14%, were committed by a person who held a valid firearms licence.

Of Canada's two million licensed gun owners, 111, or 0.00555%, used their firearm to murder someone.

Since most criminals don't register their guns, why would they obey a "ban?"

On the other hand, in 2005, 64% of accused murderers had a prior criminal record, including 6% for homicide.

Gee, do you think the real problem here might be the criminals and an absurdly lax justice system?

Just a thought.
 

Fry

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Infidel-6 said:
FWIW - I'd rather have legal CCW in Canada than handgun hunting...

ZC -- if you need help I'm on leave and could roll out with the "Arsenal of Democracy"tm to assist LE in the hunt (well okay I found a use for handgun hunting, but honestly I would rather use a long gun)

Long guns are much easier to use hunting in my opinion... learning to properly shoot a handgun and then hunt with it would be like learning to shoot all over again!
 

Greymatters

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old medic said:
The two yellow highlights are my own.

Wed, July 25, 2007
Missing the target on gun crime By Lorrie Goldstein
http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Commentary/2007/07/25/4366146.html

Of Canada's two million licensed gun owners, 111, or 0.00555%, used their firearm to murder someone.

Since most criminals don't register their guns, why would they obey a "ban?"

On the other hand, in 2005, 64% of accused murderers had a prior criminal record, including 6% for homicide.

Gee, do you think the real problem here might be the criminals and an absurdly lax justice system?

Excellent facts.
 
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