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The Great Gun Control Debate

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Fishbone Jones

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Jarnhamar said:
CCW or open carry of personal weapons on a CF base would be a nightmare I think. From storage regulations like locking their firearms up in a vault if they go on ex to carrying live ammo inside buildings (which you currently need headache waivers and shit for).
In Petawawa and one other base you need dangerous goods and a 1.4S placard to transport any small arms ammunition (base policy) does that mean me carrying a mag of 9 mill I'll need dangerous goods and placards on my vehicle? 

There's some goofy ammo nazi's out there, I had a civi ammo tech (equivalent?) threaten to get me charged for bringing a live 25mm shell to the ammo compound to turn in to amnesty (wouldn't fit in the box's) because I wasn't DG qualified and I didn't transport it in a separate compartment  ::)

There's a whole bunch of rules and policies that would need to be re-written for soldiers carrying pers weapons on base.

CCW is banned on US Bases, IIRC, except for special cases. I know there was talk of changing it when that mass shooting took place by the terrorist psychologist. Don't know where that's at right now.

Old Sweat said:
Indeed, but it has been done and on duty or off duty. it could apply. Many years ago, I came across an instruction on it, but don't want to get into details as it still may be valid.

I have no doubt, but given the militaries' propensity for weapon security and ROE's I believe CCW is likely a non starter for soldiers on duty. The fallout of a shooting on base by a soldier on duty would be crazy. Who's jurisdiction would it be would be a nightmare in itself. DND is not ready to get mired in all the permutations that could evolve and, I believe, would just shut the idea down from the get go.
 

Tibbson

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If I really wanted to live in a shooting gallery I'd move south.  As it stands now I don't see a need for any changes here, civilian side or military. 
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Given the way the CAF tends to write policy, this would end up being a massive jug fudge!  No thank you.
 

Jed

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recceguy said:
If we're going to do it, make it the same for every citizen. Get the boxes checked, you get your permit on your own dime.

Best approach ever.
 

OldSolduer

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There's only one person I really real trust with a weapon - me.

And some days I have my doubts about that..... ;)

Seriously this is a non starter.
 

Thompson_JM

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Hamish Seggie said:
There's only one person I really real trust with a weapon - me.

And some days I have my doubts about that..... ;)

Seriously this is a non starter.

^This.

We cant even get Law Enforcement officers to be allowed to carry off duty... Heck, we cant even get all sworn law enforcement officers allowed to carry ON DUTY!

There is a greater likelihood of the CF adopting a pet unicorn than there is, of this sort of thing ever taking flight here in Canada.


 

Harrigan

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Tommy said:
^This.

We cant even get Law Enforcement officers to be allowed to carry off duty... Heck, we cant even get all sworn law enforcement officers allowed to carry ON DUTY!

There is a greater likelihood of the CF adopting a pet unicorn than there is, of this sort of thing ever taking flight here in Canada.

That would be 449 Squadron then! 

http://www.canadianwings.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/squadrons/449squadron_full.jpg

;D

Harrigan
 

Thompson_JM

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Harrigan said:
That would be 449 Squadron then! 

http://www.canadianwings.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/squadrons/449squadron_full.jpg

;D

Harrigan

Got me again Army... Got me again....

Well played!
 

Remius

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Tommy said:
Got me again Army... Got me again....

Well played!

It might also actually be HMCS Unicorn...

https://www.google.ca/search?q=HMCS+Unicorn&safe=active&biw=1680&bih=881&noj=1&tbm=isch&imgil=HjoPjhY8KEsuwM%253A%253B3PgJGvhsKUoFxM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fesask.uregina.ca%25252Fentry%25252Fhmcs_unicorn.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=HjoPjhY8KEsuwM%253A%252C3PgJGvhsKUoFxM%252C_&usg=__Vnec_SBmwvTtqML2Xl1OSkqX5_E%3D&ved=0CD4QyjdqFQoTCOjForiJ6sYCFUzPgAodR3wPdQ&ei=VBqtVejLMcyegwTH-L2oBw#imgrc=HjoPjhY8KEsuwM%3A&usg=__Vnec_SBmwvTtqML2Xl1OSkqX5_E%3D

 

Fishbone Jones

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Schindler's Lift said:
If I really wanted to live in a shooting gallery I'd move south.  As it stands now I don't see a need for any changes here, civilian side or military.

Thanks for your (emotional?) opinion, but it adds nothing to the discussion.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Tommy said:
^This.

We cant even get Law Enforcement officers to be allowed to carry off duty... Heck, we cant even get all sworn law enforcement officers allowed to carry ON DUTY!

There is a greater likelihood of the CF adopting a pet unicorn than there is, of this sort of thing ever taking flight here in Canada.

Not true. There are city PDs that allow it.
 

jaysfan17

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George Wallace said:
Really!  Just what we need.  A soldier with a high power assault rifle wacking away at the shooter, then some unidentified CCW people in the crowd wacking away at God knows what, and we have a situation with people shooting everywhere, and a case that may appear to have escalated from one shooter to dozens of unidentified shooters.....Now the soldier turns on the CCW crowd and any collateral persons in the area.  Now we have not only an assailant, but a massive Blue on Blue.....and we haven't even mentioned the arrival of the Police, who will now have multiple unidentified shooters.  That is quite the scenario.  Would you really want to be within ten city blocks of such a fiasco?

:rofl:

That was an interesting scenario. I quite liked it.
 

Remius

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luttrellfan said:
:rofl:

That was an interesting scenario. I quite liked it.

The funny thing (or not) is that the confusion about the shooting on 22 Oct was exactly because undercover police or police not in uniform or properly identified wearing masks led some members of the public to to call in false information.  The Rideau Center being a prime example of that pandimonium.  The whole city turned into a fiasco. So George's example isn't that outlandish.

That being said , this was a high profile, high media, high misinformation scenario that is not the norm.  In fact had someone had stopped Bibeau when he started his little war then teh pandimonium might have been minimised.

If people are trained and certified, this should not be a problem (at least not a problem some people are making it out to be). 

But...there is no political will or desire to open this can of worms, so all of this is just fanciful hoping and dreaming.   
 

Tibbson

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recceguy said:
Thanks for your (emotional?) opinion, but it adds nothing to the discussion.

There is nothing emotional about it at all.  I don't want to live in a country obsessed with a gun culture, even though as a peace officer I am required to carry one for work most days.  I firmly believe that the US' obsession with gun rights and their "the criminals have more so we citizens need more" is a good part of their problems but for them the genie is already out of the bottle.  Yes, one incident in Ottawa is far too many but the idea of concealed carry for soldiers, off duty cops or the entire citizenry is not a solution to a problem that does not require such a drastic reaction.  In my humble, and non-emotional, opinion.
 

George Wallace

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Crantor said:
The funny thing (or not) is that the confusion about the shooting on 22 Oct was exactly because undercover police or police not in uniform or properly identified wearing masks led some members of the public to to call in false information.  The Rideau Center being a prime example of that pandimonium.  The whole city turned into a fiasco. So George's example isn't that outlandish.

That being said , this was a high profile, high media, high misinformation scenario that is not the norm.  In fact had someone had stopped Bibeau when he started his little war then teh pandimonium might have been minimised.

If people are trained and certified, this should not be a problem (at least not a problem some people are making it out to be). 

But...there is no political will or desire to open this can of worms, so all of this is just fanciful hoping and dreaming. 

I might add, none of the four Police forces involved (Ottawa City Police Services, RCMP, OPP and the Military Police) had a common means of communications. 
 

RocketRichard

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The solution is ever so simple as stated before, if one is so passionate about CCW best move to the United States of America...
 
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jollyjacktar

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Schindler's Lift said:
There is nothing emotional about it at all.  I don't want to live in a country obsessed with a gun culture, even though as a peace officer I am required to carry one for work most days.  I firmly believe that the US' obsession with gun rights and their "the criminals have more so we citizens need more" is a good part of their problems but for them the genie is already out of the bottle.  Yes, one incident in Ottawa is far too many but the idea of concealed carry for soldiers, off duty cops or the entire citizenry is not a solution to a problem that does not require such a drastic reaction.  In my humble, and non-emotional, opinion.

:goodpost:  I'll second that as a former peace officer.  Well stated.
 

Bzzliteyr

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I was in the US last week when the Tenessee shooting happened. I was on a military base and no one even reacted to it. There were already checks in place at the gate for ID.

Nobody started to suggest that everyone should be carrying a pistol or anything, they just carried on with life. We get scared so easily.
 

fullflavor

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To deny concealed carry is to assume or wishfully think that 'CF soldier would have been dead before the cops take over'. ..."those gruesome illwishes.." - Quran, Bible. ;D
 

PanaEng

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George Wallace said:
LOL

I agree with recceguy's version of how it should be done if such a time comes.  I also see instances where Police have enough problems identifying persons, even their own at times.  My scenario is silly, but not any more silly than some of the statements for CCW that have been posted here that would permit anyone to carry.  recceguy has it closest to right, that we can get, as I see it.

I don't think that your scenario is outlandish at all. That is exactly what happened on Oct 22 except for the shooting everywhere - which is not a big jump in assumptions if many less trained ppl had ccw and saw an UC guy with a gun running down the street. Most of you know that the brain sometimes does not process things properly during high-stress situations. It was 2200hrs and we were still looking for possible multiple suspects as reported to OPS, OPP, and RCMP.

However, there is precedent as several high profile members have had ccw permits for self protection. (MGen (retd), and others)

Should have read the thread to the end before commenting. But I'll just add that I'm not totally against it but will =require more thought than what I can articulate at this time.
cheers
 
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