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The Fall of Stephane Dion

According to the latest CROP poll, the Tories and BQ are in a statistical tie in Quebec, and the Liberals and NDP are far behind.  Must be something to this putsch from the Quebec wing...

<a href="http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080329/CPACTUALITES/803290815/6730/CPACTUALITES">Link to article</a>

If my translation is correct, here's the breakdown:

Overall
BQ - 30%
Conservatives - 29%
Liberals - 20%
NDP - 15%

Quebec City area
Conservatives - 41%
BQ - 25%
NDP - 17%
Liberals - 15%

Rest of Quebec
CPP - 34%
Bloc - 30%

Montreal
BQ - 32%
Liberals - 25%
Conservatives - 21%

Best PM
Harper - 35%
Layton - 24%
Dion - 16%

Satisfaction with Harper government...55%

:eek:


 
Meridian said:
Ive always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because of the CF, indirectly.

I've always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because it's like watching a train wreck. It's morbid, but you can't look away.
 
Meridian said:
apparently.... even his wife may have something to do with his downfall...

http://en.chatelaine.com/english/life/article.jsp?content=20070416_160841_4712&page=2


welll....
....Says one disgruntled Liberal who doesn't want to be named, "She has the potential to overshadow him. The scuttlebutt here is that he's being cast in a role that's weak, a guy who lets his wife pick his clothes for him and asks her advice on policy – it doesn't play well for him."

That's BS!  No need to blame her for being overly strong....if you pick a pantywaist to lead your party forward, don't try and devalue other people associated with him!  [He's just appears weak because his wife is so [overly] strong?]  That's tripe!
 
recceguy said:
I've always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because it's like watching a train wreck. It's morbid, but you can't look away.

Hahaha Probably the best description of the Liberals since Chretien.  Thanks for my morning laugh Recceguy
 
Dion's advisers want Ignatieff demoted: CTV
Updated Sun. Mar. 30 2008 10:38 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Some of Stephane Dion's top advisers are planning to press the Liberal leader in the coming days to dump Michael Ignatieff as deputy leader, CTV News has learned.

Dion said today he has great confidence in Ignatieff and no one should worry about rumours. Ignatieff insisted on CTV's Question Period on Sunday that he has not been disloyal, saying his job "is to make (Dion) the next prime minister of Canada."

But some in the Dion camp believe that that Ignatieff, Dion's former leadership rival, is privately undermining the Liberal leader with critical and disdainful remarks.

Earlier this week, Dion demanded an end to the political sniping within his party after several shots were made at his leadership.

Some of his advisers want Dion to project a tougher image as leader. They argue it would send a strong message to party dissidents, by demoting the politician perceived as his greatest threat.

"These people are using the example of Jean Chretien when (he) said, 'You know, I should have dealt with Paul Martin earlier,'" said Jean Lapierre, a political commenter and one-time Liberal cabinet minister.

When the House of Commons resumes again Monday, the Liberals will have two new star MPs in Bob Rae and Martha Hall Findlay. A demotion of Ignatieff could be justified as a move to allow the new MPs equal billing, but others say that it would escalate the party's internal sniping into outright war.

CTV's chief political correspondent Craig Oliver said dumping Ignatieff might create more problems for Dion then it solves.

"Moving Ignatieff down means cascading all the way down the caucus three powerful jobs that have to be found," Oliver told CTV News. "This could create dissent in the caucus or even open warfare."

Oliver said one possibility for Dion would be to dump the deputy leader position totally, saying it was unfair to Rae and Hall Findlay for Ignatieff to get such a high profile.

Also, Oliver said Dion is in a tough position over a possible federal election. New polls in Quebec say the Liberal aren't ready for an election but wait too long and the Conservatives could be in an even better position by the fall.

"For the Liberals, they are in a worse position than they were in the middle of the sponsorship scandal," Lapierre told CTV's Question Period on Sunday.

Political commentator L. Ian McDonald told Question Period that the CROP poll, conducted for the La Presse newspaper, establishes the Conservatives as the federal brand outside Montreal -- especially as the Bloc Quebecois sags.

The Bloc, which has been the province's dominant party, is down to 30 per cent support. The Tories are nipping at the sovereigntist party's heels with 29 per cent. The Liberals have only 20 per cent support, and the NDP are at 15 per cent.

"But when you drill down inside those numbers, they're awful for (Liberal Leader Stephane) Dion," McDonald said.

For francophones, who comprise about 85 per cent of Quebec voters, support breaks down this way:

    * Bloc: 35 per cent
    * Tories: 30 per cent
    * Liberals, NDP: Tied at 15 per cent

A key region is Quebec City, the so-called 418 region. The news for the Liberals there is even worse:

    * Tories: 41 per cent
    * Bloc: 25 per cent
    * NDP: 17 per cent
    * Liberals: 14 per cent

"Quebec City is Mr. Dion's home town. He's in fourth place in his home town," McDonald said. "A leader without a base is like a prophet without a homeland."

With a report from CTV's Roger Smith
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080330/dion_deputy_080330/20080330?hub=TopStories
 
"She has the potential to overshadow him. The scuttlebutt here is that he's being cast in a role that's weak, a guy who lets his wife pick his clothes for him
and asks her advice on policy – it doesn't play well for him."

Why is that make him weak ? Because it's his wife who make suggestion, instead of high paid communication specialists for the clothes
and politicals consiglieres for policy ?

Shhees!
 
I hazard to guess that if Mr Ignatieff were demoted, he might cross the floor. After all, he's probably the bluest liberal in the house.
 
Yrys said:
Why is that make him weak ? Because it's his wife who make suggestion, instead of high paid communication specialists for the clothes
and politicals consiglieres for policy ?

Shhees!

I took this as a close look into the brain of some Liberals.  It isn't a crack at Dion but a commentary of where some Liberals place women in our society.

Of course I'm a man who has from time to time required my wifes fashion advice. :D
 
ModlrMike said:
I hazard to guess that if Mr Ignatieff were demoted, he might cross the floor. After all, he's probably the bluest liberal in the house.

Now that would be an interesting scenario. Wonder if the Conservatives would want, accept him, or would he end up sitting as an independent which would be the kiss of death politically for him.
 
Coderre has been demoted too. I don't like him one bit.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080331/dion_coderre_080331/20080331?hub=TopStories

"Dion demotes Coderre in bid to restore discipline

Updated Mon. Mar. 31 2008 12:29 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Liberal MP Denis Coderre has been demoted from his position as defence critic in a move seen as a bid by leader Stephane Dion to restore discipline in his party's caucus.

Coderre is being shuffled to the position of heritage critic, a portfolio with a lower profile. He has been replaced by Bryon Wilfert, a Dion loyalist and one of the first supporters of his bid for the party leadership.

"Stephane Dion is trying to take control of his caucus, believing he's being undermined by people like Mr. Coderre and Michael Ignatieff, and so the knives are out," CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife told Canada AM.

The outspoken Coderre was a key supporter of Ignatieff during his bid for the leadership of the Liberal party, a contest that was eventually won by Dion, who beat out Ignatieff, along with Bob Rae and Martha Hall Findlay.

Dion's leadership ability has come under fire in recent weeks, with many within the party looking to Ignatieff to take over. Fife said the Dion camp has even contemplated dropping Ignatieff from his position as deputy leader and demoting him to immigration critic.

New MPs

The shuffle comes as Rae, Hall Findlay and Joyce Murray take their seats in the House of Commons for the first time since being elected in recent byelections.

Rae remains in his position as foreign affairs critic, which he held despite not having been elected, and Hall Findlay becomes associate finance critic.

Gerard Kennedy, another unsuccessful leadership candidate, is the new critic for intergovernmental affairs, though he has not yet run for election.

Fife said the new MPs will be hard to miss in the House of Commons but Ignatieff's role will likely be scaled back.

"As time goes on you'll see Mr. Ignatieff will be playing less of a role in question period and that will go to people like Bob Rae and Martha Hall Findlay who are coming into the House today as legitimate stars."

Shuffle details

According to a Liberal news release, the following changes were made within the opposition ranks:

    * In addition to continuing as foreign affairs critic, Rae will join the Priorities and Planning Committee;
    * In addition to becoming associate finance critic, Hall Findlay will also join the Priorities and Planning Committee;
    * Murray becomes Vice-Chair of the Caucus Committee on Environmental Sustainability;
    * Geoff Regan replaces John Godfrey as Chair of the Caucus Committee on Environmental Sustainability;
    * Coderre becomes the Liberal Critic for Canadian Heritage, la Francophonie and Official Languages;
    * Wilfert, formerly Associate Foreign Affairs Critic, moves to the Defence file;
    * Kennedy becomes Critic for Intergovernmental Affairs; and
    * Senator James Cowan and Dr. Bernard Party join the Priorities and Planning Committee. "
 
All this talk of Liberal MPs wanting an election and M. Dion holding off for fear of the consequences....

It seems to me that if those Liberal MPs really want to get rid of M. Dion, and the only way they can do that is have a leadership contest, and the only way the can have one of those is to have an election then they have one sure cure immediately available to them: Next confidence motion show up and vote against the Government.

Last I heard the MP's vote was his own....not the Party's and not the Leader's.
 
footslogger said:
The thing that I can't understand is that in the polls both Conservatives and Liebrils are very close to being tied.  What could it possibly take for these people to see that party for what it is?

There was a poll a month or two back that said the country is permanently split - and in Canada - if your parents voted one way - you probably vote that way too.

Not being a political guy like the rest of the troops on this thread (and its very good I believe) it seems to validate in that people you`d think would vote one way after certain life experiences (Army, School, University) go right back to throw their vote away .... but to them they are going the right thing - so what can you do except observe the phenmenon?

In the next election vote like Ferdinand Marcos - Vote Early and Vote Often! :)
 
It seems to me that if those Liberal MPs really want to get rid of M. Dion, and the only way they can do that is have a leadership contest, and the only way the can have one of those is to have an election then they have one sure cure immediately available to them: Next confidence motion show up and vote against the Government.


Um...You can't just hold a leadership contest willy nilly.  However, there will be a leadership review coming up and the Liberal party faithful can yay or nay Dion.  A leadership contest might result as a fact of that situation.  

Last I heard the MP's vote was his own....not the Party's and not the Leader's.

Yikes!  Where did you hear that???  This is not at all how the Canadian Parliamentary system works now, or quite frankly, has ever worked.   Canada is governed by responsible government-meaning that the executive is accountable to Parliament.  To ensure that the executive is accountable to Parliament it must command the confidence of the House of Commons.  In order to ensure that the executive has the confidence of the House of Commons it uses measures such as party discipline comprised of different levels.   This means that if an MP wants to remain a member of that Party he has to toe the line or he is out.   Only rarely does an MP have the ability to vote they way he wants even if it is against his own party and these are free votes.  

 
stegner said:
Yikes!  Where did you hear that???  This is not at all how the Canadian Parliamentary system works now, or quite frankly, has ever worked.  Canada is governed by responsible government-meaning that the executive is accountable to Parliament.  To ensure that the executive is accountable to Parliament it must command the confidence of the House of Commons.  In order to ensure that the executive has the confidence of the House of Commons it uses measures such as party discipline comprised of different levels.  This means that if an MP wants to remain a member of that Party he has to toe the line or he is out.  Only rarely does an MP have the ability to vote they way he wants even if it is against his own party and these are free votes. 

Exactly, the choice is still the MP's.  She He still has to face the consequences but no one can issue an order for Him or Her to remain seated and leave them without free will to stand on their own.

Yes our MP's are whipped in more way than one but they can still vote their conscience.
 
Reccesoldier said:
Yes our MP's are whipped in more way than one but they can still vote their conscience.
And they have.  I believe that it was Bill Casey of the Conservatives who voted against a government motion (budget?).  He was tossed from caucus and I believe he sits as an independant.  The NDP also have: in the initial "same sex" marriage vote, it was not a free vote for the NDP.  A member from Manitoba (?) voted against it, and I believe that she too was tossed from their party.
Now, if some sort of grass roots MP rebellion arose with a cry of "For God's sake, go!" were to happen, I don't know how the party would deal with say ten plus members.
EDIT:
Now, imagine this.  Ten or so liberal MPs inform the Conservative whip of their intentions.  It comes time for the vote, and the conservatives deliberately leave x number of MPs away.  Dion thinks that he still has it by 8 votes or so for the latest government motion to pass with his guys remaining in their seats.  Much to his surprise, ten stand, the motion is defeated and Stephen Harper announces that he's lost confidence of the house and is off to see the Governor General. 
Imagine: ten opposition members dealing with the government to bring it down so that they can go to election and lose their leader!  Someone ought to write a book!  ;D
 
Yes our MP's are whipped in more way than one but they can still vote their conscience.

The sad fact is that the MP's that do so have short political lives after such acts of political bravery. 
 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
And they have.  I believe that it was Bill Casey of the Conservatives who voted against a government motion (budget?).  He was tossed from caucus and I believe he sits as an independant.  The NDP also have: in the initial "same sex" marriage vote, it was not a free vote for the NDP.  A member from Manitoba (?) voted against it, and I believe that she too was tossed from their party.
Now, if some sort of grass roots MP rebellion arose with a cry of "For God's sake, go!" were to happen, I don't know how the party would deal with say ten plus members.
EDIT:
Now, imagine this.  Ten or so liberal MPs inform the Conservative whip of their intentions.  It comes time for the vote, and the conservatives deliberately leave x number of MPs away.  Dion thinks that he still has it by 8 votes or so for the latest government motion to pass with his guys remaining in their seats.  Much to his surprise, ten stand, the motion is defeated and Stephen Harper announces that he's lost confidence of the house and is off to see the Governor General. 
Imagine: ten opposition members dealing with the government to bring it down so that they can go to election and lose their leader!  Someone ought to write a book!  ;D

I like the way you think. :D 
 
stegner said:
The sad fact is that the MP's that do so have short political lives after such acts of political bravery. 

Which is another reason that the Party system as it is in Canada is causing a degradation in the pluralism of our democracy. Too much power in the hands of the party, not enough in the hands of the people/MP's
 
Getting rid of the party system is difficult if not impossible considering responsible government.

 
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