The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

[suffolkowner]

Im not sure we have the ability to change much of our political system in terms of representation, division of powers or political units.
The Senate seems to be the easiest target. Currently

West/24
Central/48
East/30
North/3

 

[Navy_Pete]

Not to detract from any of the posts in this thread, but I’ve never understood this saying.

Even as a child, when I would hear it, I’d always ask “What’s the point in having cake if we aren’t allowed to eat it?”


Nobody has ever explained to me what this saying actually means. 🧐🤨

I found that confusing as well; I think it's meant to imply you can't retain possession of a whole cake and eat it at the same time, ie you can't simultaneously have two conflicting things (like more government services with less taxes). So you need to sacrifice the cake to enjoy eating it.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' is another funny one, but it actually means you can't do something impossible (like lift yourself up by your bootstraps yourself), but somehow has come to mean you need to unf&ck yourself by yourself.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Except what you put in your "proposal" isn't based on "density" but on "regional" representation without proportionallity to population at all. You unilaterally define, for instance the Prairies/Pacific and Nothern Regions as having an existence that requires us to look at their density of population as a whole, but in "density" terms, there is no difference between the Vancouver/Northern BC divide and the Toronto/Northern Ontario one.

Your proposal may, or may not have validity as a regional representation system, but dont call it something based on "population density".

The point is to address the regional divides in our country. Equalize regional representation. Give each region equal political value in our confederation.

I couldn't care less about population density.

 

[Kirkhill]

The point is to address the regional divides in our country. Equalize regional representation. Give each region equal political value in our confederation.

I couldn't care less about population density.

I am starting to like the Area Code system more and more - Each one represents a significant community in similar environments with similar wants and needs.

Primary City States
416
514
604

Suburbs
905
613
519

Exurbs
250
403
780
306
204
807
705
450
506
902

Hinterlands
867
468
367
709

Plus or minus a bit on the estimates.

24 Regions

 

[dapaterson]

More people live in Calgary than in all of Nova Scotia. Alberta has nearly double the population of NB, NL, NS and PE combined.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Fair enough, HT.

But it leads to at least two questions:

1) Why is equal regional representation of any importance in this country? And,

2) Who gets to define the regions?

I mean, I'm not sure that B.C. wants to be considered as part of a region that includes Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba instead of it's own region all by itself (not sure about how Manitoba feels about SA and AB either, for that matter), or how NFLD & Lab feels about being put in the same basket as the other Atlantic provinces. And I am pretty sure that neither Quebec nor Ontario wants to be sadlled with the other in the same "region", but would rather claim (with good historical basis) to be their own region by themselves.

P.S: We already have such a system of "equal" regional representation. It's called the Senate.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Fair enough, HT.

But it leads to at least two questions:

1) Why is equal regional representation of any importance in this country? And,

2) Who gets to define the regions?

I mean, I'm not sure that B.C. wants to be considered as part of a region that includes Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba instead of it's own region all by itself (not sure about how Manitoba feels about SA and AB either, for that matter), or how NFLD & Lab feels about being put in the same basket as the other Atlantic provinces. And I am pretty sure that neither Quebec nor Ontario wants to be sadlled with the other in the same "region", but would rather claim (with good historical basis) to be their own region by themselves.

P.S: We already have such a system of "equal" regional representation. It's called the Senate.

1) Because our country has massive regional disenfranchisement. Both politically and socially.

2) I do, it's my scenario.

Putting some opposing groups together in the same cart is a good thing. It should help balance out the extremes.

 

[Halifax Tar]

More people live in Calgary than in all of Nova Scotia. Alberta has nearly double the population of NB, NL, NS and PE combined.

Blah blah blah blah.

Just because 1 million people live at point A and 250K at point B doesn't mean the concerns or issues of the lesser population should be less important politically.

 

[FSTO]

(not sure about how Manitoba feels about SA and AB either, for that matter),

OGB. Don’t confuse Winnipeg attitudes with the rest of the province. In fact there are 3 distinct regions within the province. The shield, rural, and Winnipeg.
Also Western Manitoba and Eastern Saskatchewan are totally the same in attitudes, geography and politics.

Same with western Saskatchewan and Eastern Alberta. You can toss the Peace River country of both BC and Alberta as homogeneous regions.

 

[suffolkowner]

View attachment 74556


I am starting to like the Area Code system more and more - Each one represents a significant community in similar environments with similar wants and needs.

Primary City States
416
514
604

Suburbs
905
613
519

Exurbs
250
403
780
306
204
807
705
450
506
902

Hinterlands
867
468
367
709

Plus or minus a bit on the estimates.

24 Regions

going to take more work I think Windsor doesnt have much to do with Owen Sound or the area in between

 

[dapaterson]

Blah blah blah blah.

Just because 1 million people live at point A and 250K at point B doesn't mean the concerns or issues of the lesser population should be less important politically.

Who said that?

 

[Halifax Tar]

OGB. Don’t confuse Winnipeg attitudes with the rest of the province. In fact there are 3 distinct regions within the province. The shield, rural, and Winnipeg.
Also Western Manitoba and Eastern Saskatchewan are totally the same in attitudes, geography and politics.

Same with western Saskatchewan and Eastern Alberta. You can toss the Peace River country of both BC and Alberta as homogeneous regions.

Maybe some provincial borders should be redrawn?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Who said that?

You did, you just put it between your lines.

We discussed this before. Unless you've changed your mind ?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, I guess I haven't travelled far and wide in this great country of ours lately, but I don't see disenfranchisement on a regional scale in the regions you mention. I see a big divide on a provincial versus federal level between two specific provinces - Alberta and Saskatchewan - over the way the Oil and Gas industry is being treated by Ottawa, and all provinces and territories against Ottawa in matters relating to Health Care spending. But I don't see regional disenfranchisement otherwise by regions as you define them. BC, Man, ON, and even QC currently, or the Atlantic provinces don't seem to have a big "disenfranchisement" problem with the Canadian federation as it is now.

 

[dapaterson]

You did, you just put it between your lines.

We discussed this before. Unless you've changed your mind ?

Never did. Never said that the voices of the group of (in your example) 250,000 should not be heard.

But where do you draw your lines? How do you form your groups?

We have systems that are imperfect but better than alternatives. You're advocating that living in an area with a large population should strip you of equality.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Or we could just be happy we live in the best country in the world by a long mile......

 

[Halifax Tar]

Never did. Never said that the voices of the group of (in your example) 250,000 should not be heard.

But where do you draw your lines? How do you form your groups?

We have systems that are imperfect but better than alternatives. You're advocating that living in an area with a large population should strip you of equality.

We certainly have. I've brought this up before in another thread.

Ive posted and quoted the way I would do it. You can read back and see.

I'm advocating that living in an area with a large population shouldnt make you more equal.

 

[dapaterson]

We certainly have. I've brought this up before in another thread.

Ive posted and quoted the way I would do it. You can read back and see.

I'm advocating that living in an are with a large population shouldnt make you more equal.

One person one vote.

Don't see how that's unequal.

On the other hand, using arbitrary lines to claim "this group is equal to that group" strikes me as singularly unfair; who makes those decisions? Who decides that "two million Atlantic Canadians get the same weighting as twenty four million central Canadians"?

 

[Kirkhill]

Fair enough, HT.

But it leads to at least two questions:

1) Why is equal regional representation of any importance in this country? And,

2) Who gets to define the regions?

I mean, I'm not sure that B.C. wants to be considered as part of a region that includes Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba instead of it's own region all by itself (not sure about how Manitoba feels about SA and AB either, for that matter), or how NFLD & Lab feels about being put in the same basket as the other Atlantic provinces. And I am pretty sure that neither Quebec nor Ontario wants to be sadlled with the other in the same "region", but would rather claim (with good historical basis) to be their own region by themselves.

P.S: We already have such a system of "equal" regional representation. It's called the Senate.

Equally I'm not sure that NE BC and the Crows Nest Pass want to be considered in the same sentence as Victoria and Point Grey. Etc.

And wrt the Senate - That is the problem child. It needs to be fixed. And Bert Brown's EEE senate is the right answer. The problem is neither the parties, the government nor the provinces want an EFFECTIVE senate. It would only make life harder for them.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One person one vote.

Don't see how that's unequal.

On the other hand, using arbitrary lines to claim "this group is equal to that group" strikes me as singularly unfair; who makes those decisions? Who decides that "two million Atlantic Canadians get the same weighting as twenty four million central Canadians"?

The inequality is in the distribution of seats.

Distribute them equally. I used regions, someone else likes an area code idea.

I know that's a scary idea for those in central Canada as admittedly they are giving up the power.