The Brookfield Megathread

[392]

It's called "contracting out".  Brookefield does not have any "leeway" what so ever with regards to CFIRP policy.  They must go with what is in the book. 

Exactly my point. Their job is to facilitate a relocation for members. Part of that is a clear explanation of entitlements, benefits, etc etc, regardless of how many times someone has moved previously under IRP. They are not doing this - what I have seen in the last two APS is nothing but IRP "consultants" (and I use that term very lightly) cherry picking what they want or don't want to explain to members. And when the consultant doesn't "understand" something, their own interpretation of the policy should not be applied (and while I am at it, why is policy allowed to be interpreted in the first place? Policy is policy, period).

[rant on]If I refer back to my last posting, they disallowed a very clear entitlement of the licensing costs for spousal employment (my wife is an RN) all because the "consultant" interpreted something written on the receipt from the NBNA along the lines of reinstatement of license. She interpreted this to mean that Mrs. Happy had allowed the license to lapse while still residing in this province (even though the real reason it lapsed was because we had been in Ontario for the previous 5 years which I clearly explained). I even went to the IRP coordinator / liaison / whatever the official term is for the military pers who is responsible, and was flat out told that they could not overrule the "consultant's" interpretation and Mrs. Happy should have kept paying the $450 per year to remain licensed in NB even though we were posted to Pet and didn't know we'd be returning  :facepalm: I was offered the option to go to DCBA for adjudication, but being as angry as I was, I just said f it.

If I, a Cbt Engr who is not paid to advise on, implement and enforce TB policy WRT paid moves can take the time to research all the appropriate policy as it applies to military members (and by this, I mean QR&O, DAOD, CBI, etc. not some chickensh*t Brookfield "interpretation") to at least be able to try and provide some suitable advice to my subordinates, then Brookfield employees who are paid to do this function as it is their job can surely take the time to ensure they know the policy inside and out.

Perhaps if DND tied the payment of the consultant for the administration of a move to their actual performance instead of throwing $$$$ at Brookfield and then washing their hands of it, threads like this would quickly vanish. The system as it is, IMHO, is very broken, and it appears that all anyone in the crystal palace cares about is saving the almighty dollar. But yet when Bloggins' move goes to sh*t and he / she is up in front of the CoC for financial or admin burden because they lost their shirt during their last cost move, the system places the blame solely on Bloggins' shoulder.[/rant]

I fully understand that a lot of the complaints aired come from pers who are not fully versed in cost move policy, but I fully believe it is time to cut away the dead weight and start staffing those positions with pers who actually understand the responsibility they have, in addition to bringing some CF oversight back into the picture to ensure these "consultants" are not misinterpreting clearly laid out policy. However, being the realist I am, I know this will most likely never happen, so I will just add it to the list of reasons why the creaking of the out door swinging is starting to get more frequent as more and more CF members tire of this merry-go-round.

Out.

 

[dapaterson]

For the record: Brookfield is paid a flat rate per move.  No incentives to pay out less than is entitled.

 

[PAdm]

I even went to the IRP coordinator / liaison / whatever the official term is for the military pers who is responsible, and was flat out told that they could not overrule the "consultant's" interpretation and Mrs. Happy should have kept paying the $450 per year to remain licensed in NB even though we were posted to Pet and didn't know we'd be returning  :facepalm: I was offered the option to go to DCBA for adjudication, but being as angry as I was, I just said f it.

I had an obvious entitlement in my 2009 move.  Brookfield said no.  I engaged the local mil IRP Coord and just got stared at.  I then  ullhair: ullhair: ullhair:engaged DCBA adjudication who quickly (too quickly) said no.  I knew I was right and asked what was my next recourse.  DCBA Adjudication said "grievance".  I was pissed off and knew I was right.  So I did and 2 years later DCBA (as the IA) agreed with me and awarded me my $213.  Yes folks - $213.  I soooo enjoy our contracted out approach to relocation.... :facepalm:      My posting in 2011, and in 2012, and now in 2013 (I am not kidding - 3 moves in 3 years) is reinforcing my hatred of our process.  There is no way the CDS wanted this when he signed off on the new approach back in the 1990s.  ullhair:

 

[devil39]

devil39 - are you my wife and you never told me you were on the forum?? 

I don't think so....I'm not overly feminine.  I have, over the years, been known by the name UMIN - Ugliest Man In NATO

 

[garb811]

Best one for me was when I was going to MSGU and sat down for my first appointment.  She looked at my file, her eyes lit up and she went, "Oh....! An international move?  I've never done one of these before, this is going to be FUN!"  It was too.  Good thing I knew what I was doing from having been to MSGU before or I'd still be trying to get over there "x" years on because she didn't have a clue (ie. she couldn't quite wrap her head around the requirement to ship my HG&E to the Embassy vice my SQ, no matter how many times I explained to her the whole idea that the only address recognized for diplomatic shipments was the Embassy proper and to address it to my SQ would be bad.  Very, very, very bad.)

 

[DAA]

I had an obvious entitlement in my 2009 move.  Brookfield said no.  I engaged the local mil IRP Coord and just got stared at.  I then  ullhair: ullhair: ullhair:engaged DCBA adjudication who quickly (too quickly) said no.  I knew I was right and asked what was my next recourse.  DCBA Adjudication said "grievance".  I was pissed off and knew I was right.  So I did and 2 years later DCBA (as the IA) agreed with me and awarded me my $213.  Yes folks - $213.  I soooo enjoy our contracted out approach to relocation.... :facepalm:      My posting in 2011, and in 2012, and now in 2013 (I am not kidding - 3 moves in 3 years) is reinforcing my hatred of our process.  There is no way the CDS wanted this when he signed off on the new approach back in the 1990s.  ullhair:

I hear your pain.  Alot of times, the DND Coords just don't seem to know what their job is!!!  Rarely did I have to forward an adjudication to DCBA and on several occassions I just went over to the RLRS/Brookefield Office and said "I looked it over, pay it out and put a note on the file indicating that".

So if you come across a DND Coord that thinks all they are there for is to forward adjudications to DCBA, they obviously don't understand their job.  Hell, I even had access to the RLRS/Brookefield Relocation network so I could look at your fle......lol

 

[PAdm]

So if you come across a DND Coord that thinks all they are there for is to forward adjudications to DCBA, they obviously don't understand their job.  Hell, I even access to the RLRS/Brookefield Relocation network so I could look at your fle......lol

This will come out all wrong as I know some folks will take offence and this is sincerely not my intent.  This is not a rank thing, it is an expertise thing:

I complained to a Brookfield civ, then to the Sgt IRP coord, who told me to go to DCBA adjudication. I did so and was denied by an MWO. I grieved as per the direction I was given by the MWO and was awarded $213 by misc staff who staffed a ltr for a Col to sign.  Let's call that $30,000 in staff work.  Nice way to do business. I grieved because a staff officer told me "tuff". 

 

[PuckChaser]

Hell, I even access to the RLRS/Brookefield Relocation network so I could look at your fle......lol

I'm posted (hopefully cost move) next summer for the first time, PM your mailing address for the case of beer to send.  ;D

 

[H2eau]

It's called "contracting out".  Brookefield does not have any "leeway" what so ever with regards to CFIRP policy.  They must go with what is in the book.  Mind you, they do have a "proprietary" operations manual which relocation agents can refer to and which does have examples and clarifications but these are not available for review by CF members.

So for the OP, you need to look at and be prepared to answer these questions:

a.  Which category do you fall into?  Art 2.2.01 or Art 2.3.01?  (2.3.01 can sometimes, result in a reduction in ILM&I benefits)
b.  Did you try and arrange for a closing date for the SALE on anything other than a Monday?  A closing on a Monday can be viewed as a 3 day extension of benefits!
c.  Did you try to arrange the closing date for the PURCHASE as close to the SALE closing as possible inorder to facilitate a door to door move?  You should have as a minimum, in your case a seven (7) day window (ie; pack, load, clean and 3 x days TNL).
d.  Have you consulted with both your Realtor and Lawyer regarding the "requirement" for you to be physically present the day of closing and do you have this in writing?  (on our last sale, we cleaned and went to our lawyers office either that afternoon or the day after, signed the papers, gave him the keys and then left town and the closing date on sale was another 3-4 days after that).

These are some of the questions that you "may" need to answer inorder to avoid any bumps in the road.  However, looking at the timeline which you have provided in your post, you seem to have made a sufficient effort inorder to arrange for a "door-to-door" move, in which case, I would have no heart ache supporting that your benefits (ILM&I) be paid.  But then again, someone may see it differently....

It's not like you are trying to milk the "maximum" out of the relocation, so they really shouldn't be trying to "nickel and dime" you!

I don't think I am being unreasonable in my request.  Although our closing is on Monday in theory we still have a door to door move.

a) Reg force
b) We actually have the original closing on Thursday and possession on Friday.  I would be on the possession end my spouse would be on the closing end.  However the buyers submitted an amendment to change the closing date and we felt, in order to save the sale, we had to oblige.
c) see response to b
d) We are seeing Lawyer this week.  I am going to try and get something in writing saying we need to be here at closing.

 

[garb811]

...
They are telling us we have to travel on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.  The HG&E delivery is on Wednesday but we don't take possession of our new house until Friday so storage, lodging and food for two days (Wed and Thur) will have to come from Personal. 
...

Sorry, was reading your latest post and something twigged so I came back to your original post and re-read it. Based on my experience your HG&E are not going to be delivered until Monday because they will not schedule a delivery for the day you actually take possession due to the fact that you do not know when you are actually going to get the keys.  I have lucked out and had the keys at 9am, another time I didn't get them until 3pm. 

Even if they do agree to deliver on your possession date, you are not going to get your unpack until Mon and Tues.  This will cause problems on its own because you are then faced with the choice of: 1) leaving the stuff in boxes and staying in the hotel over the weekend, which will cause a fight with Brookfield for ANY funding because your stuff has been delivered; or 2)  start to unpack yourself to find the basics of life and assume the liability if any of the stuff in the boxes you unpack is damaged. 

As others have said, an actual "door to door" move as it is currently being enforced is almost impossible to do and the member ends up paying for something in the end.  You lose a lot of flexibility because of this as well.  It is hard enough finding a suitable house in an unfamiliar town without the added stress of trying to negotiate a closing date that aligns exactly with what you need to comply with this.

 

[DAA]

I don't think I am being unreasonable in my request.  Although our closing is on Monday in theory we still have a door to door move.

a) Reg force
b) We actually have the original closing on Thursday and possession on Friday.  I would be on the possession end my spouse would be on the closing end.  However the buyers submitted an amendment to change the closing date and we felt, in order to save the sale, we had to oblige.
c) see response to b
d) We are seeing Lawyer this week.  I am going to try and get something in writing saying we need to be here at closing.

I don't think your being unreasonable either.  The questions I posed are questions that may or may not be asked of you, should they try and limit your benefits.

Go about your business, submit your receipts, answer their questions exactly like you did above and things should go smoothly.  Any problems down the road, feel free to PM me and I will have a look at helping you resolve it. 

 

[DAA]

This will come out all wrong as I know some folks will take offence and this is sincerely not my intent.  This is not a rank thing, it is an expertise thing:

I complained to a Brookfield civ, then to the Sgt IRP coord, who told me to go to DCBA adjudication. I did so and was denied by an MWO. I grieved as per the direction I was given by the MWO and was awarded $213 by misc staff who staffed a ltr for a Col to sign.  Let's call that $30,000 in staff work.  Nice way to do business. I grieved because a staff officer told me "tuff".

Yup and that is the sad sad part!!!  The Sgt IRP Coord is "responsible" for doing a complete review of your question/complaint and or trying to resolve it locally.  If they can't do that, then once again, it is there "responsibility" to "receive" your complaint in writing, "verify" the situation with Brookefield agents and then forward your complaint including their "recommendations" to DCBA for adjudication.

I saw a situation exactly like yours a few years back, where a person complained about something prior to their posting.  Then when they reached the new unit, it ended up on my desk but I couldn't auth what they wanted as it had already been adjudicated on.  But still, I looked it over and agreed with the CF member.  Called DCBA and asked if they would entertain a "second look", which they agreed to do.  Sent up the members complaint, along with my assessment and it came back approved.

Turned out that the DND IRP Coord at the prievious unit, was receiving complaints and forwarding them to DCBA with no explanation or background on the issue.

And "rank" should have absolutely NO bearing what so ever, when it comes to Relocation.  Everybody should be treated with equal respect and consideration at all times!!!!! 

I didn't care if you where the Base Comd or the QL3 Pte, both received the same level of service!!!  I know the Base Comd was quite happy.      The QL3 Pte, that was another story.  After me telling him to put everything in writing (and I even gave him a draft), he staffed it through his CoC, after being returned multiple times for spelling, grammar, contents, etc, etc it was finally reviewed by the unit C Clk and then "denied" by the unit CO.  I saw the poor kid about 3-4 weeks later and asked where the memo was and he told me the story.  He came over to my office the next day, re-did the memo, he signed it, Brookefield put a minute on it, I forwarded it with my review notes to DCBA and the kid had his money less than a month later.

Got relocation questions, post them in the forums for everyone to see or if it is personal, feel free to PM me and I will help where I can....

 

[RubberTree]

Ask and you shall receive DAA...
Does anybody know if there is some sort of leeway for short postings? Say you receive your posting message with a COS date less than 6 weeks later. Its next to impossible to have an HHT and find a house owned by someone that is willing to close in less than 30 days. Are you really expected to limit your house search to those that can accommodate such a short time frame, or suck up the cost of ILM&M until the house is available?
My case isn't too bad (close on my home on the 13th and close on the purchased home on the 24th) but hotels and meals add up quite quickly...plus an exercise on the 25th which will take me away for another week before I can pull my F&E out of storage.
It would seem reasonable to have a short notice posting rule but reasonable doesn't always rule the day in such situations.
I have spoken to Brookfield about this and received the reply "get your move done first, worry about asking questions later."
Any input would be appreciated,
Thanks,
RT

 

[SentryMAn]

did I read this correctly in that the CF gives all the money to Brookfield for a move and you the mbr have to submit receipts to Brookfield for things like mileage, Hotels, Meals, etc when you move?

If that's the case I'm screwed, first posting is 6000kms away from me, to say it will add up quickly for that type of travelling would be an understatement. 

I'm really scared now for my move, which could be within the next 6 weeks.

 

[DAA]

did I read this correctly in that the CF gives all the money to Brookfield for a move and you the mbr have to submit receipts to Brookfield for things like mileage, Hotels, Meals, etc when you move?

If that's the case I'm screwed, first posting is 6000kms away from me, to say it will add up quickly for that type of travelling would be an understatement. 

I'm really scared now for my move, which could be within the next 6 weeks.

Brookefield will do an "initial" calculation for TNL (Travel to New Location) costs and can provide you with an "advance" if you request it.  Turn around time, probably 5-7 business days.  You won't necessarily go out of pocket for items such as this.

2.9.02 - CF members shall be advanced funds (via the Service Provider) to assist in meeting personal expenses incurred in the relocation such as House Hunting Trip (HHT), Destination Inspection Trip (DIT), Travel to New Location (TNL) or Interim Lodgings, Meals and Miscellaneous Expenses (ILM&M).

 

[DAA]

Ask and you shall receive DAA...
Does anybody know if there is some sort of leeway for short postings? Say you receive your posting message with a COS date less than 6 weeks later. Its next to impossible to have an HHT and find a house owned by someone that is willing to close in less than 30 days. Are you really expected to limit your house search to those that can accommodate such a short time frame, or suck up the cost of ILM&M until the house is available?
My case isn't too bad (close on my home on the 13th and close on the purchased home on the 24th) but hotels and meals add up quite quickly...plus an exercise on the 25th which will take me away for another week before I can pull my F&E out of storage.
It would seem reasonable to have a short notice posting rule but reasonable doesn't always rule the day in such situations.
I have spoken to Brookfield about this and received the reply "get your move done first, worry about asking questions later."
Any input would be appreciated,
Thanks,
RT

Both of the closing dates are "relatively" close to each other and so long as you can demonstrate that you have made every reasonable effort to change either date to facilitate a door to door move, then you may very well have a good case for reimbursement.  One thing you do not want to bring into the picture is the really "DUMB" statement in 5.01 "CF members whose closing date is after the date the HG&E is available for delivery have made a personal choice to await a specific house and are therefore responsible for additional costs associated with the later closing."

So based on the closing date of the Sale, you add on the TNL time and that should be the target date for closing on the purchase, which is applicable to all moves but generally not possible.

Edit - so at this point in the relocation, all I can recommend is the start lining up your ducks......  :clubinhand:

 

[Zoomie]

What's the word on returning OUTCAN members?  What I understand is that my moving truck will enter a CBSA impound yard until I come to get it released.  This impound yard may or may not be near the new posting.  Does IRP account for the extra time that this activity will accrue?

 

[DAA]

What's the word on returning OUTCAN members?  What I understand is that my moving truck will enter a CBSA impound yard until I come to get it released.  This impound yard may or may not be near the new posting.  Does IRP account for the extra time that this activity will accrue?

When last I encountered an OUTCAN on return, everything was administered through CFSU Ottawa from the start.  Your shipment will be delivered to the closest "bondable" warehouse" and from there, it is up to CBSA to send an agent out to "clear"clear it.  You will not be out of pocket for any travel expenses associated with this and if you incur any, submit the receipts.

 

[captloadie]

That being said, returning from outcan  can still be a real hassle. In my case, the CBSA office was 3.5 hours away, and I had to personally go down and clear the shipment with their office. They then will go do the inspection. Oh, and I had to do this twice, as the cars were shipped separately, and showed up the day the movers were delivering my HG&E. On the upside, the local Brookfield office didn't raise much of a stir when I needed to keep the rental car for 2 extra days until I had time in my schedule to go back down.

 

[H2eau]

Hello Folks, I have another Brookfield/IRP question. 
When we were preparing to sell our home, the Brookfield consultant told us that our real estate fees were only covered for the appraised value of the home.  For example if our house was appraised at $100,000 and the real estate commission is 4.4% then Brookfield would only pay $4,400 of the real estate commission. 
The appraiser reviewed our home and calculated a value much lower than our agent's listing price.  $19,000 lower.  We went ahead with the agents advice and did sell it for more than the appraised value.  Now we have to pay the outstanding commission fee out of pocket.  I understand that we were verbally made aware of this situation, but has anyone heard of this before?  I can't seem to find anything in the IRP manual.  Thanks.