The Agent Orange and Its Repercussions Thread

[agentorangealert]

Hi Folks:

I just wanted to say hello and introduce myself. My name is Art Connolly and  I am an army brat who spent his younger years at CFB Gagetown. I have created a website www.agentorangealert.com. I have received comments from some of the people at this messageboard and I invite you to have a look at the www.agentorangealert.com site. All and any comments are appreciated.

Thanks
Art

 

[Strike]

The nasty part of Tordon 101 is the Picloram which has an inert agent called Hexachlorobenzene. The EPA
has established that Picloram, HCB and its biodegradable successor, Pentachlorophenol (Penta) can and do harm to the liver, kidneys, blood, lungs, nervous system, immune system, and gastrointestinal tract yet our governments continued to spray almost a million liters of this poison over the base where human contact was inevitable.

Pardon my being the devil's advocate here, but it would help if you posted the date that the EPA banned this substance.  If it was banned AFTER the spraying stopped then this statement is moot.  After all, hindsight is 20/20.

REMEMBER WE STILL DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN SPRAYING FROM 1985 TO 2005.

This statement just serves to cause fear where it may not even be warranted.

break:break

Art,
Very good web site and very well laid out.  Keep up the good work.

 

[Gun Shy]

In the 80'S A Team of civilians came to the base, to do test on known buried 45 gallon drums. There were soldiers from various schools tasked to dig up the barrels. Some of theses barrels were filled partially to fully filled with some unknown liquid[/b]..  The civilain team drew samples from all the barrels. The rumour at the time these barrels were supposed to be agent orange. When we asked several weeks later what the liquid was in the barrels. The party line was "WATER". But what really upset me about was this incident was that the morning before we were to dig up the barrels we had blood drawn and then the following day we had to give blood again. Some of the barrels were rusted out and they too had been filled then the liquid would have seeped into the ground.

 

[dalriada]

Hi Everyone

I just wanted to reply to "Strike's" comments about my post as follows, as he says and I quote:

"This statement just serves to cause fear where it may not even be warranted"

Referring to my statement below:

REMEMBER WE STILL DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN SPRAYING FROM 1985 TO 2005.

I don't believe that I am causing fear where it may not be warranted. I was poisoned by Agent Orange and then by Agent White. And as a result, I have seven major organ dysfunctions and I am tested for liver and pancreatic cancer every three months.

I was in the freaking hospital SIX times last year. One time I almost didn't make it!!

I am dying and that, I believe, gives me the right to warn people about what exactly has been sprayed. It not a question of causing fear, it is a question of causing people to ask legitimate and legal questions to which they have a right to know.

NO ONE did anything about the issue of poisoning of military or civilian personnel. We were lied to and misled on a massive scale. If someone had done something about the mess back then, maybe a lot more people would be alive because of seeking treatment for cancers a lot earlier if we had known about the poison.

What I am doing is alerting people to the fact that we DO NOT KNOW what has been sprayed on the Base since 1985, and it CONCERNS NOT ONLY ME BUT HUNDREDS, POSSIBLY THOUSANDS OF OTHERS AS TO WHAT HAS BEEN SPRAYED THERE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS.

We have been lied to and misled, we still have an official position that only Agent Orange and Agent Purple was sprayed by the Americans over a short period of time in the summer of 1966 and 1967. Well, excuse me for bursting anyone's balloon but there was a policy of defoliation in place from 1956 to 1984 which involved spraying of Agent Orange & Agent White by our own government, that does not even include what the Americans sprayed.

From 1956 to 1984, our government allowed the spraying of Agent Orange and Agent White on a massive scale. They sprayed Agent Orange from '56 to '64, then switched to Agent White from '65 to '84. It involved the spraying of:

Total Acreage sprayed from 1956 to 1984 -  181,038 Acres sprayed with 6,504 (45 gallon barrels) or 292,680 imperial gallons or 1,328,767 litres of defoliant chemicals. Just in case your eyes popped out at that, it is available from the DND Freedom of Information Officer at 613-992-9560. Ask for document
#A-2004-00207. It will be sent out to you free of charge.

Since I HAD to access this information through the Freedom of Information Act from the Department of National Defence, what makes anyone think that the government is going to tell us what they sprayed at CFB Gagetown for the past twenty years?

Given the current stance of the government on the spraying, they are certainly not going to tell us unless someone accesses the information and I have a request in now for that information.

Kenneth Dobbie

 

[Strike]

Kenneth,

I am just being the devil's advocate here so please put the scythe away for the moment.  I'm just wondering, in your request under the A to I Act did you request info on what was sprayed after 1984?  It does not seem that this subject, especially given the current climate, would be forbidden for distribution due to classification.  If you can't get access to it I'm sure someone from the press can.  In fact, with all the focus on the spraying (and my knowledge of how the press works) if it hasn't been in the paper yet, there's probably nothing to worry about.  So, since we DON'T know what was sprayed (if anything) during that time then I stand by my comment that fear may well be unwarranted.

Of note, I did some research through my own papers from university as I did some studying on the subject (keeping in mind it was several years ago).  When DOW Chemical was looking for recertification of the Picloram in the US, they were required by the EPA to reduce the presence of HCB to less than 200 parts per million.  Numerically, so everyone can see how small that is, it equates to 0.0002% of HCB in the Pircloram.  So, was Agent White sprayed during those 20 years?  Quite possibly, but with nowhere near the same amount of possible carcinogenics (I say this only because HCB is not classified as a class 1 [carcinogenic] chemical) as were done previously.  Although I pulled this out of my notes, this can easily be found online.

I do empathize with you as my father is a survivor of cancer and is not in the best of health.  After crawling around for years in the bilge and double bottoms of ships, Lord only knows what he's injested.

On a completely lighter note -- please never assume the sex of a person.  There's nothing that steams me more.  Sort of like having someone answer the phone, "Cpl Bloggins.  How can I help you SIR?"  Ooooh, just gets to me.

 

[dalriada]

Hi ...

Just for your info, yes I have asked for exactly what has been sprayed from 1985 to present. And the FoI officer has complied that he will provide the information. I have been told by dozens of military personnel that the spraying is done every summer and has been since 1984. Thus, I want to know what has been sprayed as I am sure everyone else does as well. As for the press, I am in daily contact with various members of the press, TV, radio and newspapers since I went public with this whole mess. I will be doing some more work with Louise Elliott of the CBC on followup stories about Agent White, etc.

I know that Dow had to apply for re-certification of Picloram and it was with the understanding that they reduce the HCB to less than 200 ppm because it was much higher than that according to the information and since it was at the time a 100% toxifier of human tissue it had to be reduced or otherwise the EPA would never have given their approval for re-certification and the final approval for the new Picloram was given in 1988. HCB does cause disorders of the liver, immune, respiratory, hepatic, gastroenterological and nerve systems. Thus, is a deadly poison. 

TORDON 101 was sprayed in CFB Gagetown from 1965 to 1984 inclusive and according to the FoI document that I have, our government sprayed close to a milllion liters of the stuff and it was the pre 1988 version which is understood to be 25 times more toxic, thus the concern.

TORDON 101 is Agent White.

I thank you for your thoughts about my health...

and I never assume sex....**smile**

Perhaps you and I should trade emails...I can be reached at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca

 

[X Royal]

Last evening on a local TV news broadcast (NewPL in London) there was a story about a 86 year old former soldier who claims to have buried 4 drums of agent orange on the base in 1969. He was quoted as saying being told by a superior "bury it, no maps, no records, don't tell me where and to forget it completely".
The DCO of Meaford was interviewed and denied any knowledge of agent orange at Meaford.
Also mentioned were the names of 3 others who assisted him to bury it. 2 are passed on and the other one denies the story saying "I would remember that" but stated he knew all the names listed.

What does everone think?

BTW the former soldier offered to return to Meaford to try to locate the drums.
If he could locate them it would prove his statement and lead to a clean-up. And if unsuccessfully it would still leave questions.

IMO the thought of someone digging in and exposing themselves and others should be fully investigated.

Pro Patria

 

[Sergeant295]

As much as I have no real knowlege of Agent Orange as it was far before my time, I would like to think that anything remotly credible related to the subject would be investigated by the Canadian Goverment. I would hate to think that recruits from the Royal Canadian Regiment's Infantry School were being possibly exposed to the Agent for know reason.

 

[JBP]

Great, this is exactly what I want to hear since I'm currently training in Meaford!!! This week starting Monday I'm doing the field week where we learn how to man a trench+dig a trench and all that wonderful offensive+defensive ops stuff...

At least I'll know what that really rusty barrel is if I find one whilst digging my trench! Highly unlikely and not plausable, but it could certainly make for a bad day...

 

[X Royal]

At least I'll know what that really rusty barrel is if I find one whilst digging my trench! Highly unlikely and not plausable, but it could certainly make for a bad day...

Highly unlikely - Yes
Plausable - ?

Best Wishes - Keep Safe

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well, we've been digging in there for years and nobody's come across it yet, and the areas not really that big. Not doubting the old guys word though. Think about it. Tell four guys to go out and dig a hole in that soil, and it probably wouldn't be very deep, especially if unsupervised. It's all shale and fieldstone. The drums would have probably disintigrated by now, letting the chemical leach into the surrounding soil and detroying any vegetation in the area. Just conjecture mind you.

Joe,
Don't panic if you hit metal while digging. The areas littered with it, which would make finding the drums with a detector a massive pain.

 

[X Royal]

Well, we've been digging in there for years and nobody's come across it yet, and the areas not really that big. Not doubting the old guys word though. Think about it. Tell four guys to go out and dig a hole in that soil, and it probably wouldn't be very deep, especially if unsupervised. It's all shale and fieldstone.

Or would they not be more likely to bury it in the sandy area really not that far from the part of the camp where the buildings were at the time. Sand or rock & shale? :
Lets all hope its not there instead of hasn't been hit yet.
Or even worse: Hit & not realized.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Anythings possible. Bring the old guy in and see. Don't know how much it would help though. I used to go there in the early seventies and when I went back in the 90's I hardly recognised anything.

 

[X Royal]

recceyguy;
I agree. Let him try. If he spent lots of time there he might recognize the lay of the land. Although the buildings are in the same area eveything is different. Most likely the road paths in the surrounding area's are in the same place.
I know I could walk over the former CFB London and pin point where the buildings were. I know a lot smaller area but what does anyone have to loose if he's right.
BTW I bet I still could navigate thoughout the old Camp Ipperwash and know where I was without a map. BTDT many times.

 

[a_majoor]

Given the nature of the soil, and the supposition these guys were unsupervised at the time, the simplest solution would hav been to go to Vail's point or the cape and toss the drums into the lake. Now there's a fine outcome for you....

This story is full of a lot of holes. Where did that "Agent Orange" come from in the first place? The entire base was essentially abandoned from from the late 1950's to the early 1980's, who was he with, when and where? Etc.

If the drums do come to light, they will probably be revealed as some sort of vehicle waste product ("Joe, get rid of these drums of used oil; they're in the way..."), which is bad enough, but doesn't need to be expanded into a big scare story.

 

[X Royal]

Art: as to the truth of the story? I just posted what was reported on the TV. As for the entire training area being essentailly abandoned from the late 50's to early 80's BS. Although the training area had few or no permenently posted staff most of the time it was used quite regularly. It was an annex of CFB Borden.
As for them being unsupervised I believe the soldier was mentioned to be a Cpl. which in 1969 would of been a supervisory postition.
And if it was just oil why the "no records,don't tell me, forget it, no maps ect." instructions? Dumping oil into the ground in 1969 would of been and was a common practice.

 

[Kat Stevens]

An almost identical story just popped up about troops burying toxic glop in Aldershot, NS.  Read it in passing in the Edmonton sun, no link avail, sorry...

Kat

 

[Blackhorse7]

Do it.  Nothing worse than the Government trying to cover up a situation that may still endanger current CF staff.  Get ahead of the problem, admit what happened, and say "Allright, it shouldn't have happened, but it did.  So let's fix it."

 

[X Royal]

Can't be 100% sure anything happened but there should be enough cause for a full investigation.

 

[ArmyRick]

Wait for it . Watch and shoot. Don't speculate.