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Syria Superthread [merged]

jollyjacktar said:
You'd still not do it nevertheless.  That's what separates us from the savages.

I don't know about that. I've never been in that position and am unlikely to be, but I'm having a hard time understanding the "wrong" in the rebels actions. Is it because the pilots are defenseless? I mean that didn't stop the pilots from dropping bombs minutes before?
 
The Turk story doesn't add up. They said they warned the Russians from 5 minutes before shooting them down. 5 minutes at jet speed is many, many km. And the F 16s had to get into firing position. The SU 24 crashed in Syria,  so was it exiting Turkey when shot at? How far in Turkey was it?
 
Sheep Dog AT said:
I believe it's illegal to shoot a pilot that's bailed.

They may still issue  Chits for the safe return of aircrew?

"Blood chit usage is now classified."
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/29/a-short-history-of-blood-chits-greetings-from-the-lost-seeking-help/?_r=0

 
Sheep Dog AT said:
I believe it's illegal to shoot a pilot that's bailed.

I have a feeling the rule of law has long left that place.
 
I get that it's illegal to shoot a pilot that's bailed. I just don't get why, or why anyone would expect the various rebel groups (not just in Syria) to know or follow that rule.

My understanding is that the Russian fighters were warned 10 separate times over 5 min. Following that 2 fighters penetrated Turkish airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles respectively for approximately 17 seconds. I'm not sure which one was shot down. The Russian ambassador in Turkey was called in yesterday and was made aware of Turkish concerns and ROE. Turkish pilots are to fire on any incursion into their airspace that is their ROE.

I will look for some links but some of this is on F-16.net
 
Radar-track.png


http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/ruaf-su-24-shot-down-by-turkey/

This is the Turkish version. In the Russian version the SU-24s flew around Syria. Red is Russian SU-24s and blue is turkish F-16s.

The story is that the two SU-24s flew across a couple miles of Syria (17 seconds) and one of them was hit with a missile over Syria.

I agree that it seems unlikely that there were 5 minutes of warnings issued, but who knows.
 
suffolkowner said:
I don't know about that. I've never been in that position and am unlikely to be, but I'm having a hard time understanding the "wrong" in the rebels actions. Is it because the pilots are defenseless? I mean that didn't stop the pilots from dropping bombs minutes before?

Or going back up and doing it again once rescued....
 
suffolkowner said:
I get that it's illegal to shoot a pilot that's bailed. I just don't get why, or why anyone would expect the various rebel groups (not just in Syria) to know or follow that rule.

Of course I don't, they're little better than barbarians.  Civility from any of them would be surprising.

Russian is now confirming that one of the pilots was rescued by Syrian commandos and is back in their hands. 

Russian Pilot Rescued
 
nato confirms Turkish story?

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_125052.htm?selectedLocale=en

Turkish letter describing events to UNSC

http://www.scribd.com/doc/291002800/Turkey-Letter-to-UNSC-on-Shooting-Down-SU-24-Plane-Nov-24-2015

Russian description of events including video showing russian jets not entering Turkish events?

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-path.html#ixzz3sRnUbpzM

This can't be the first time a Russian or Allied plane has been shot down over the last 70 years. I think in Erdogan, Putin just ran into his twin.
It's a messed up situation you have the Turks bombing our allies (the Kurds) and the Russians bombing our allies (so called moderate rebels-the barbarians if you will)
 
Syrian and Russian SF rescued the second pilot.

http://news.yahoo.com/second-pilot-downed-russian-plane-rescued-defence-minister-091827535.html
 
suffolkowner said:
.... Russian description of events including video showing russian jets not entering Turkish events?

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-path.html#ixzz3sRnUbpzM ....
And this from the RUS MoD Info-machine ....
Today, at 10:24 (MSK) an F-16 fighter of the Turkish Air Force shot down Su-24M tactical bomber of the Russian Aerospace Forces, which was performing a combat sortie over the territory of the Syrian Arab Republic. The fighter supposedly performed the strike with IR homing headed short-range missile.

The objective monitoring data confirmed that the Turkish warplane did not make any attempt to establish a communication or visual contact with the Russian bomber.

The missile hit the Su-24M aircraft over the territory of Syria. The bomber crash place is on the territory of Syria four kilometres far from the borderline. The Su-24M crew managed to eject. According to the preliminary data, fire from the ground killed one of the pilots.

The objective monitoring data shows that the Russian aircraft did not cross the Turkish borderline.

Data received from the Syrian Air Defence Forces confirmed this fact as well.

Moreover, radar reconnaissance data, which was received from the Hmeymim airbase, registered Syrian airspace violation by the attacking aircraft of the Turkish Air Force.

This fact is assessed as a flagrant violation of international law with extremely grave consequences and the direct breach of Memorandum on air incident prevention and flight safety over the Syrian Arab Republic, which had been signed by the USA and relevant for all countries of the coalition, including Turkey. 

That is why the Turkish party started urgent consultations with the NATO instead of immediate contacting with the Russian Defence Ministry.

Defence Attaché of Turkey in the Russian Federation was presented a decisive protest against the actions of the Turkish Air Force, which had led to the loss of the Russian aircraft.

It is to be mentioned that from the beginning of the operation, the Russian Defence Ministry had established a direct telephone line between the National Centre for State Defence Control of the Russian Federation and the Ministry of National Defence of Turkey. But it has no practical use due to the fault of the Turkish party.

In order to evacuate the Russian pilots from the landing point, a search-and-rescue operation was conducted by two Mi-8 helicopters. In the course of the operation, one of helicopters was damaged by small arms fire and performed an emergency landing in the neutral area. One contract serviceman – member of Marine Troops – was killed.

The personnel of the search-and-rescue team and the helicopter crew were evacuated and are now at the Hmeymim airbase. The helicopter was destroyed by mortar fire conducted from the territory controlled by illegal armed groups.

The operation on searching and rescuing the crew of the Russian bomber is continued.

It is to be emphasized that in the action area of the Russia aviation the Syrian governmental troops are conducting operation on elimination of illegal armed groups, which include over 1000 militants from the North Caucasus according to the Russian data sources.

It is to be stressed that none of the Russian partners and none of the states, which are fighting against ISIS, has mentioned that there are units of so-called “moderate opposition” in that they do not recommend to make strikes in this area. On the contrary, these territories are known as the ones controlled by the most radical illegal armed groups.

Now the General Staff is elaborating additional security measures for the Russian airbase.

First: All the activities of the attack aviation will be carried out only under cover of fighter aircraft.

Second: Air defence will be reinforced. For that purpose, the Moskva cruiser equipped with air defence system Fort analogous to the S-300 one will go to the shore zone of Latakia. Russian Defence Ministry warns that all the potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.

Third: Contacts with Turkey will be terminated at the military level.
 
What does the west do when Russia eventually shoots down a Turkish plane?
 
Altair said:
What does the west do when Russia eventually shoots down a Turkish plane?
Going to greatly depend on the circumstances, and how much political will there is based on whether the Turkish intercept was justified. If Obama draws another line, nothing will be done. We've already dug a hole by not doing a no-fly zone when we had the chance. We'll need significant assets to defeat the new Russian AD that will likely defend Syrian aircraft.
 
suffolkowner said:
I'm having a hard time understanding the "wrong" in the rebels actions. Is it because the pilots are defenseless? I mean that didn't stop the pilots from dropping bombs minutes before?

It violates protocol I, article 42 of the Geneva Conventions. Pilots ejecting from aircraft in distress must be given an opportunity to surrender.

Just like you can't shoot someone in the head even though they were holding a gun minutes before.
 
PuckChaser said:
We'll need significant assets nuclear weapons to defeat the new Russian AD that will likely defend Syrian aircraft.
Syria has an extensive AD network, which is probably the main reason we aren't attacking them.  So long as we attack Daesh, then they're happy for us to do their dirty work.

If we think we want to attack Syria proper, well, now that the Russians have augmented their AD with their own, it would take a full court press for us to do so, and I'm not confident we could destroy it without resorting to nuclear weapons.

 
Technoviking said:
Syria has an extensive AD network, which is probably the main reason we aren't attacking them.  So long as we attack Daesh, then they're happy for us to do their dirty work.

If we think we want to attack Syria proper, well, now that the Russians have augmented their AD with their own, it would take a full court press for us to do so, and I'm not confident we could destroy it without resorting to nuclear weapons.

On the other hand it might be just the right time for a war against Russia; it might be a tad painful but we wouldn't lose. The outcome might be something like:

    1. A new European Russia, running from about the current borders with Finland, Latvia, etc down to Georgia and Eastwards to the Urals, aligned with Germany;

    2. A new "independent" Asian country in Eastern Siberia aligned with China; and

    3. A new country, between the Urals and Eastern Siberia of questionable alignment.

My guess is that war has to come, sooner or later; sooner seems preferable to me.
 
Jarnhamar said:
It violates protocol I, article 42 of the Geneva Conventions. Pilots ejecting from aircraft in distress must be given an opportunity to surrender.

Just like you can't shoot someone in the head even though they were holding a gun minutes before.

I get that its a rule. I just don't understand the why. I also don't understand why we would expect all these other factions/cultures to be cognizant of the rule and to actually follow them. I mean if you're in a APC that's disabled are you given the opportunity to surrender? Can you shoot paratroopers in the air?
 
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