STIFF UPPER LIP BEATS GRIEF COUNSELLING - Peter Worthington

[scoutfinch]

scoutfinch, you typed "Mr. Worthington have a clue what military individuals have experienced"

Oh Really? Mr Worthington fought as a patricia during the korean war. So yeah, he does have a clue as to what he is talking about. As far as his opinion, its his and if thats how he chooses to deal with his memories of war, so be it.

Obviously, I retract my comments on Mr. Worthington and sincerely apologize for my error.

 

[scoutfinch]

To Cdn Blackshirt:  You aren't being held to a higher standard because you are a civilian.  You are being told to stay in your lanes just like anyone else would be told.  With respect to your lanes, are you really suggesting that your time as the 'Managing Director for a Medical Testing and Surveillance company' makes you qualified to comment on everything from 'audiology to psychiatric leave evaluations'?  I think not. 

Just last week you were lecturing me about glycemic index and aspartame, relying on a study that basically refuted your own point.    You were wrong; however, you tried to elevate yourself to the position of expert by providing a link to a study that IF YOU HAD READ IT PROPERLY THROUGH A MEDICAL OR ALLIED HEALTH CARE PARADIGM,  you would have clearly understood what the report stated. 

IF (and I say big IF), you worked as you claimed, you likely worked in a business context.  You are not qualified or competent to comment on health care issues.  You are entitled to have opinions but don't turn around and hold yourself out to be an expert on the issues. 

Based on your own non-scholarly definition above  ('dismissive, arrogant twats'), I would argue that you REGULARLY demonstrate a God complex here.  Moreover, your asssessment of the value of grief counselling was not based on the scientific method of 'piling all the date on the table and figuring things out' as you suggested, but instead on your experience at a bank machine.

I remain unconvinced of your credentials.  I have reviewed many of your posts and have reason to believe that you are full of it .  Until proven otherwise, I will maintain the position that you are a know it all who regular speaks of matters of which you have no real expert knowledge... you love to be seen as the voice of authority on all matters of things.  You may have tangential personal experience on somethings but that does not make you an expert.

 

[S.Stewart]

RE:  Michael's question re: My role in the Medical Field - I was a the Managing Director for a company specializing in Medical Testing and Surveillance with corporate clients all over Canada.  In my role, I managed a team of 12-15 nurses, one Medical Director (MD), and oversaw outsourced work from about 20 clinics spread across the country.  Assessments including everything audiology to physicals to psychiatric leave evaluation.  

Feel free to add additional questions on-topic and I will reply later tonight.

So just to make sure I am on the same page as you, how does you managing a team of medical professionals, in various fields make you a medical professional? Because so far all your telling me is you have medical knowledge because you have worked closely with those in the field. Give me a break.

Bottom line is you are not a trained professional in mental health, you have presented to me that you have no training whatsoever in any type of mental health. As far as cure rates, mental health professionals will tell you when it comes to mental health there is no cure, the goal is to help people function in everyday society if possible, and if not possible to provide them with resources so they can have a sense of normacy and at least function.

So obviously you have misinformation about the role of the mental health system and how it works.

S.Stewart.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Tess had a good point. What is your solution blackshirt?

 

[Strike]

I haven't seen one of you question what MedTech's psychiatric training is how much research he's done on anti-depressants or prescription-writing, nor mention the fact he attacked me based on my opinion as if his opinion was actually fact (something you ALL attacked me for).

We didn't question MedTech's training because it's well documented in his posting history.

 

[TCBF]

Obviously, I retract my comments on Mr. Worthington and sincerely apologize for my error.

- A good start.

- Seems to me we have a tendency to accuse others of not being "qualified to comment on" a given issue whenever our own particular ox is being gored.  Fact is, on a site like this, the only qualification we need to comment is the ability to type with one finger and remain within the guidelines.  Politeness, patience and understanding are nice to haves, but I am certainly not the one who should be casting the first stone there.

- We appear to be softly organizing a PTSD Mafia on this site who immediately bully any disenters into shutting up by launching ad-hominem attacks and critiquing the source.

- This bodes ill for rational debate on this issue.  Reminds me of climate change.

 

[the 48th regulator]

- A good start.

- Seems to me we have a tendency to accuse others of not being "qualified to comment on" a given issue whenever our own particular ox is being gored.  Fact is, on a site like this, the only qualification we need to comment is the ability to type with one finger and remain within the guidelines.  Politeness, patience and understanding are nice to haves, but I am certainly not the one who should be casting the first stone there.

- We appear to be softly organizing a PTSD Mafia on this site who immediately bully any disenters into shutting up by launching ad-hominem attacks and critiquing the source.

- This bodes ill for rational debate on this issue.  Reminds me of climate change.

Maybe it is about time a mafia is created, so we do not end up swimming witht he fish as we have been for so long with the Rabid denials we have heard in the past!

dileas

tess

 

[The Bread Guy]

Can some folks be helped with "buck up" therapy?

Sure.

Can all folks be helped with "buck up" therapy?

Of course not - inidividuals vary in their make-up and experiences (which also explains why several senior officers mentioned in the thread show different responses to traumatic situations), so their treatment has to vary.

Is Mr. Worthington painting with too broad a brush?

Since he doesn't write that, "the most effective way for SOME individuals to cope with stress trauma is the old-fashioned British "stiff-upper-lip" approach -- put it behind you, and get on with your life," or "people opening up and talking about their ordeals and misery seems to cure little IN SOME, and only makes the trauma worse," there's a case to be made that he does.

Will this discourage some from getting help?

I hope not, but I can't read every mind and, as I mentioned, every individual is individual.

Also, statements like "Perhaps (PTSD) is more identifiable now than it was when it went by names like shell shock, "lack of moral fibre" or battle fatigue," don't seem to account for the fact that if more folks are offering help and asking the questions, you get more "yes" responses - sort of like when reported crime increases when there's a blitz on certain issues.

I have some military experience, have never served in a theatre of war, but I know a bit about mental illness through education and personal experience.  There is still a HUGE stigma against people who are mentally ill in civilian circles, and I'm guessing (given the different dynamic and environment) there may be a bit more of such a stigma in the military.  I respect Mr. Worthington's military record, but I think articles like his don't help reduce that stigma, and don't make it easier for someone for whom an initial approach isn't working to seek an alternative approach.

Where "PTSD malingering" read "welfare fraud".  Is it happening?  Probably.  Are these cases the majority?  I don't think so.

 

[Michael OLeary]

RE:  Michael's question re: My role in the Medical Field - I was a the Managing Director for a company specializing in Medical Testing and Surveillance with corporate clients all over Canada.  In my role, I managed a team of 12-15 nurses, one Medical Director (MD), and oversaw outsourced work from about 20 clinics spread across the country.  Assessments including everything audiology to physicals to psychiatric leave evaluation. 

I was the course officer for a Driver Track course once, and supervised drivers of APCs for years.  But that didn't qualify me to drive them, or to lecture others on their technical operation.

 

[Loachman]

But I bet that you were a reasonable judge of driver ability and technique, though.

 

[Michael OLeary]

But I bet that you were a reasonable judge of driver ability and technique, though.

Luckily I was only dealing with one skill, and was able to be in the 'room' while they were practicing.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Bingo,

Excellent statement Teeps.

Which is why I do not agree with you, Cdn Blackshirt.  Your "Opinion" can actually cause a troop to shy away from getting the treatment, even the all-mighty hammer (prescription pad), which is dangerous.

Although I would like to see what your version of (an over-the-counter anti-fungal/anti-microbial) answer would be for a person suffering from PTSD.

When dealing with medical opinions, careful what you are preaching, as it can do more harm than good.

dileas

tess

First, my apologies for the slow reply.  I'm moving tomorrow and tonight was one giant box and packing tape party.  :blotto:

I'm going to clarify because it appears I wasn't clear and there's been some misinterpretation of what I actually said. 

To be clear, I do not believe individuals facing PTSD symptoms (or any other symptom for that matter) should ever feel afraid to ask for help.  I do believe that a psychiatric treatment which focuses on turning the patient into a victim in combination with prescribing pharmaceuticals that have proven to generate suicidal tendencies is fundamentally flawed, wrong, counterproductive and dangerous.

And to your last point about being careful about what I preach re: medical opinions as it can do more harm than good....my whole argument is that individuals need to ensure they do their own due diligence as across many medical fields, there is a tremendous amount of misdiagnosis and mistreatment, and when walking into any medical assessment situation the patient should be prepared with whatever information they can gather in advance to ask pertinant questions and ensure the solution provided by the practioner addresses all the patients concersn, as opposed to walking in blindly and following their treatment recommendation as if it were gospel.


Matthew. 

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

To Cdn Blackshirt:  You aren't being held to a higher standard because you are a civilian.  You are being told to stay in your lanes just like anyone else would be told.  With respect to your lanes, are you really suggesting that your time as the 'Managing Director for a Medical Testing and Surveillance company' makes you qualified to comment on everything from 'audiology to psychiatric leave evaluations'?  I think not. 

Just last week you were lecturing me about glycemic index and aspartame, relying on a study that basically refuted your own point.    You were wrong; however, you tried to elevate yourself to the position of expert by providing a link to a study that IF YOU HAD READ IT PROPERLY THROUGH A MEDICAL OR ALLIED HEALTH CARE PARADIGM,  you would have clearly understood what the report stated. 

IF (and I say big IF), you worked as you claimed, you likely worked in a business context.  You are not qualified or competent to comment on health care issues.  You are entitled to have opinions but don't turn around and hold yourself out to be an expert on the issues. 

Based on your own non-scholarly definition above  ('dismissive, arrogant twats'), I would argue that you REGULARLY demonstrate a God complex here.  Moreover, your asssessment of the value of grief counselling was not based on the scientific method of 'piling all the date on the table and figuring things out' as you suggested, but instead on your experience at a bank machine.

I remain unconvinced of your credentials.  I have reviewed many of your posts and have reason to believe that you are full of it .  Until proven otherwise, I will maintain the position that you are a know it all who regular speaks of matters of which you have no real expert knowledge... you love to be seen as the voice of authority on all matters of things.  You may have tangential personal experience on somethings but that does not make you an expert.

Ah yes, the proverbial "stay in your lanes".  My favourite.  The claim of those that don't like to be questioned. 

I don't care if I'm talking to a 14-year old kid.  Any position held, should be defensible against any criticism.  If that position is not defensible on its merits, the position and opinion is worthless.

In addition, I never claimed to be an expert.  When asked, I advised everyone what position I held and what role I was in.  I should add, that for those who have been on this board for a long time, it's actually not the first time I discussed my position at the medical firm which included a second role running a computer-based training division which specialized in large industrial clients across the country (I provided both off-the-shelf and custom database integration solutions to Syncrude, Suncor, Celanese, etc.).

To repeat:  In fact, I didn't claim anything about being an expert.  I stated an opinion.  Period.  And when attacked (which should have just been a query), I described exactly the process by which I came to my assessment.

But let's go back to your opinion that "I need to be a certified expert in order to have an opinion."  I also don't work as a stock broker or stock analyst (I did write my Canadian Securities Certification which is the first heavy lifting part of becoming a stock broker and scored in the top 5% of my class and read roughly 5-6 hours of economics-based material on a weekly basis), but in doing my due diligence on a variety of macroeconomic issues I began to realize the threat of peak oil and have been 75% invested in energy for over 5 years and have no less than 20 friends and acquantainces in similar portfolios.  In addition, long before it actually happened I predicted the real estate downturn in the U.S. and recession, and intentional debasement of the fiat currencies and have been 15% weighted in a combination of a US Short Financial ETF and a US Short Home Builder/Real Estate ETF and 10% in precious metals for the last 2-years.  Combined my portfolio is averaging a return of about 35% per year.

So what exactly makes an expert?  Is the guy with all the training you seem to believe trumps all always the expert?  If so that means the experts are the guys on CNBC who tell you buy Lehman Brothers at $80, or buy call options on MBIA just before they get downgraded by Moody's because they have a PhD in Economics from Wharton or Harvard?  If so, feel free to call Jim Cramer or Larry Kudlow, or any one of another couple hundred talking heads your expert and go ahead and follow their advice blindly.  If you do, you'll find you're broke very quickly as their ability to predict anything so far in this downturn has been exactly 0%.  Or is it the guy who understands the leveraged structure of financials in the current environment, the risks/writedowns associated with the asset-backed securities of all types, and why knowing exactly why anyone who doesn't know what the ancronyms like TAF, TSLF, and PDCF stand for, exactly how they work, and what their current levels are, doesn't have any real idea of how bad of shape U.S. Financials are in. 

Bottom Line:  Any time you want to debate anything just let me know.  I'll tell you exactly what I believe to be true and the basis for that assessment....and if I don't know....or haven't formulated a position, I'll tell you that too.



Matthew. 

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

So just to make sure I am on the same page as you, how does you managing a team of medical professionals, in various fields make you a medical professional? Because so far all your telling me is you have medical knowledge because you have worked closely with those in the field. Give me a break.

Bottom line is you are not a trained professional in mental health, you have presented to me that you have no training whatsoever in any type of mental health. As far as cure rates, mental health professionals will tell you when it comes to mental health there is no cure, the goal is to help people function in everyday society if possible, and if not possible to provide them with resources so they can have a sense of normacy and at least function.

So obviously you have misinformation about the role of the mental health system and how it works.

S.Stewart.

As per reply to ScoutFinch, I never claimed to be an expert in the field.  I wrote my opinion and when challenged, explained how to came to that set of conclusions.

However as per my example, being "an expert" in anything, doesn't necessarily mean you're right.  Specifically if you look at the field of economics right now, there are literally thousands of people out there with an alphabet soup after their name that:
i)  Missed the real estate crisis.
ii)  Missed the collateralized debt obligation issue.
iii) Missed the importance of leverage on World Financials Balance sheets and how at 30:1 leverage ratios, a company can be bankrupted by as little as a 5% net portfolio loss.
iv)  Don't comprehend that the 4% in tax cuts they've received from Bush in the USA has resulted in approximately a 20% devaluing of their currency and all wealth.
Etc.

There have also been a variety of experts throughout the ages who've been 100% wrong in their beliefs. 
The world is flat.
The sun and moon rotate around the earth.
Removing organs is actually good for patients.
Drilling holes in a patients' head is an excellent way to solve headaches.

Bottom Line:  Accreditation or any other certification still requires "experts" to answer any model-based challenges put in front of them.  If they cannot do that, they're not really experts.

I raised the issue earlier - Why is it psychiatry doesn't post cure rates for patients?  Seriously, do a Google Search for "psychiatry cure rate".  I just did out of curiosity....and the only thing I found is quick video hatchet job on the issue which if you really want to look up, feel free.....because the only people interviewed in the video are experts in the Medical Field and therefore they are entitled to their opinions.

Anyway, it's now 3:00am....I've got to be up at 7:00am to actually move tomorrow so I'll answer any other questions I missed tomorrow night....


Cheers all, Matthew. 

 

[ArmyGuy99]

I have been watching this discussion with much interest in the past few days, and have decided to way in.  First of all though:

1.  I am a current Reg F QL3 Medic, and I deal with and see people almost everyday with Mental Illnesses, my PO1 and I have lengthy discussions on this.
2.  I worked for almost a year and a half as a Guard in a Secure Psych Facility, it's amazing what you learn spending 12-16hrs talking with the RN's
3.  I have lots of personal family experience with Mental Illness (Some say it was water  )
4.  I have been involved in several Critical Incidents.

Does the above make me an expert??? Heck NO.  But I do have an informed opinion.

I grew up with the philosophy of "Suck it Up Princess", and "Stiff Upper Lip", both my parents were civi medics and that's how it was done back in those early days.  This handicapped me when I had to deal with Critical Incidents.  It took years to learn how to properly deal with the bad crap that happens.  As a result I have my own coping mechanism that is working pretty good right now. 

Each person is different.  Some people need to have their hands held, some people need to just be told "It's ok".  Some people need pharmaceutical help.  But the first thing that needs to happen is to recognize that there is or may be a problem.  Medicine isn't an exact science all the time, what works for 10 people might not work for that one person that walks through the door.

Is it bad medicine to just whip out the pad and write a script for most popular drug at the moment?? God Yes, should MD's, and Psychiatrists, and Psychologists and others take the proper time to interview and help a patient deal with issues.  Yes they should.  Is it the system perfect NO.  But lets work on it, and be aware and prepared to make changes.

That being said.

....with prescribing pharmaceuticals that have proven to generate suicidal tendencies..... is fundamentally flawed, wrong, counterproductive and dangerous.

It is not possible to predict which patients will react to the drug(s) in this way.  It is unfortunate but reality.  Thankfully when this occurs there are other drugs that can be tried until the right combination is found. 

 

[Armymedic]

You know what I see...

I see a whole bunch of people strutting around, with their chests out and totally clueless as to what actually is being discussed.

Being an administrator, security guard...hell, even a patient does not make you an expert in the field of mental illness. It is even questionable to say doctors are experts in this field.

Nobody on this thread can talk facts. They only talk opinions and observations, just like Mr Worthington's at the beginning.

As for those who perceived a wrong or injustice in someones else's comment (based on opinion and observation...not fact); How about you take a shot of "stiff upper lip" and look at what the other people are saying before you tear off their head and jump down their throat.

 

[MG34]

You know what I see...

I see a whole bunch of people strutting around, with their chests out and totally clueless as to what actually is being discussed.

Being an administrator, security guard...hell, even a patient does not make you an expert in the field of mental illness. It is even questionable to say doctors are experts in this field.

Nobody on this thread can talk facts. They only talk opinions and observations, just like Mr Worthington's at the beginning.

As for those who perceived a wrong or injustice in someones else's comment (based on opinion and observation...not fact); How about you take a shot of "stiff upper lip" and look at what the other people are saying before you tear off their head and jump down their throat.

For the most part this is the only post here that makes any sense.

 

[Ergotracer]

I fear I may have exposed myself too much in previous posts… In anycase, Cdn Blackshirt is providing a viewpoint and insights which are intended to open a dialog. It is not expected that everyone will agree or disagree on every point or every aspect that has been expressed. It could be more effective to say ‘my experiences have been different’ and then draw on such experiences. Readers will form their own opinions about the credibility or realism of the information being presented based on their own experiences and by learning about individual experiences. This thread would benefit from such personal experiences rather than judgments about the author of threads/posters.  I hope to see more experience-based contributions on this thread because I think it’s an important topic.  I'm with Sof-T.     

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I fear I may have exposed myself too much in previous posts…    

We expect and encourage members to fill out their profiles. It helps others get a handle on where they're coming from and lends weight to their opinions. There is no mandate to do so of course, it's totally up to the individual. Having said that, we are more than aware of who you are, and whatever stature you assign to yourself really pulls no weight here. In effect, you're just another poster with no more presence, or bearing, than any other anonymous member.

Thanks for the input though, even if it was just an expansion on what's already been said.

Back to the subject at hand.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[the 48th regulator]

You know what I see...

I see a whole bunch of people strutting around, with their chests out and totally clueless as to what actually is being discussed.

Being an administrator, security guard...hell, even a patient does not make you an expert in the field of mental illness. It is even questionable to say doctors are experts in this field.

Nobody on this thread can talk facts. They only talk opinions and observations, just like Mr Worthington's at the beginning.

As for those who perceived a wrong or injustice in someones else's comment (based on opinion and observation...not fact); How about you take a shot of "stiff upper lip" and look at what the other people are saying before you tear off their head and jump down their throat.

So what do you suggest we do?

We receive a post, from an article dated 2005, that the author promotes a "Suck it up" attitude, and carry on.  Mr. Worthington in my opinion, in his position as a member of the media, has done more harm in the treatment than he has done with helping our troops.  A point he professes to do

I see a member advocating that the use of Medical personnel, and the treating prescribed (via medication ) is wrong.

I have refuted his statement, as a person who has gone through the process.  After many years of being denied or ignored by the system.  I finally received the treatment, thankfully through a Government program OSISS, and all the treatment I have received is exactly what CDN.Blackshirt is criticizing.  It helped me.  It is helping the people of the peer support groups I attend.  Yet you want me to sit back and say that it is okay because it is an opinion??

Saying a statement, and trying to defend it as  an "Opinion" does not allow one to advocate ignoring the treatment of an injury.  Medical opinion are only valid from medical professionals.

With your statement, basically the article should have been posted with no dialogue afterwards?  What is the use of having these forums then?

As for the strutting, I appreciate the way you strutted here and added your view on how the thread is running.  What is your take on Mr. Worthington's article?

dileas

tess