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STIFF UPPER LIP BEATS GRIEF COUNSELLING - Peter Worthington

TCBF

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PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Sun  
DATE: 2005.06.06  
EDITION: Final  
SECTION: Comment  
PAGE: 14  
SOURCE: BY PETER WORTHINGTON, TORONTO SUN

STIFF UPPER LIP BEATS GRIEF COUNSELLING

When Andre Marin was the military ombudsman --before becoming Ontario's ombudsman last month --he investigated post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in the <Canadian> military and found up to 20% of soldiers came down with it.
"A disturbingly high incidence of soldiers returning home from missions were burnt out and broken," he reported.
Maj. Wendy White, an Edmonton psychiatrist, was quoted by <Canadian> Press saying roughly 50% of soldiers returning home from foreign missions suffered from PTSD; <Army> Commander Lt.-Gen. <Marc> <Caron> noted that stress disorder among soldiers was twice as high as the rest of the <Canadian> Forces.
Clearly, PTSD is a problem for the <army>.
Retired Maj.-Gen. Lew Mac-Kenzie, who seems immune to PSTD despite a record nine UN field missions, has noted that PTSD seems more prevalent among today's peacekeeping troops than it was in wartime. Perhaps it is more identifiable now than it was when it went by names like shell shock, "lack of moral fibre" or battle fatigue.
When retired Lt.-Gen. (now Senator) Romeo Dallaire came down with PTSD after commanding the UN mission in Rwanda, 1994, it helped popularize PTSD.
PTSD has also given rise to a cottage industry of grief counsellors -- not only for afflicted soldiers, but in schools when tragedy strikes, natural disasters, accidents that take lives, wherever trauma occurs.
To some, like me, there's a lot of hogwash and hype in the grief counsellor industry. Stress trauma is real in many cases, but the formula for dealing with it is self-indulgent and futile.
New research in Britain into PTSD, published by the Cochrane organization based in Oxford and reported in Britain's Sunday Times, concludes that at best grief counselling is useless, and at worst it exacerbates the suffering of people.
The most effective way for individuals to cope with stress trauma is the old-fashioned British "stiff-upper-lip" approach -- put it behind you, and get on with your life.
That sounds easier than it is. But researchers found that those who dwell on a tragedy and endure counselling, group therapy and incessantly talking about the trauma with others, or with a counsellor, ensures that they cannot easily move on and that the tragedy is further embedded in their psyche. This can affect future mental health.
Simon Wessley, professor of psychological medicine who led the Cochrane research, found that in a study of 3,000 British soldiers who'd seen and experienced massacres and cold-blooded killings, only 3% suffered long-term trauma.
"Undoubtedly some people suffer," Prof. Wessley said, but "the toxic effect of counselling is that some people begin to see themselves as having a mental health problem when they do not."
These findings give hope for those who favour the "put it behind you" approach, but it'll be a hard sell in North America.
Even in Britain, the Sunday Times reports, "there are more counsellors than soldiers." Some 30,000 counsellors work full time; 270,000 are part-time counsellors; 2.5 million include it in their work.
Some 9,000 therapists offered their services to New Yorkers after 9/11 -- three for every person who died in the World Trade Towers.
George Bonanno, a Columbia University psychology professor, calls counselling of stress victims "an enormous waste of money.
Compare Sen. Dallaire's story with what U.S. Sen. John McCain endured during five years of torture as a prisoner of the North Vietnamese. McCain managed to put his trauma behind him, moved on, and has promoted reconciliation with Hanoi. Dallaire still seems to be emotionally anchored in Rwanda.
When Victoria Cross winner Smokey Smith was asked if he had nightmares about the war, he replied, in effect: "Naw -- I put it behind me and moved on."
In other words, people opening up and talking about their ordeals and misery seems to cure little, and only makes the trauma worse. A radical view, but possibly correct.
 

Cdn Blackshirt

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New research in Britain into PTSD, published by the Cochrane organization based in Oxford and reported in Britain's Sunday Times, concludes that at best grief counselling is useless, and at worst it exacerbates the suffering of people.

The most effective way for individuals to cope with stress trauma is the old-fashioned British "stiff-upper-lip" approach -- put it behind you, and get on with your life.

I can't speak on PTSD specifically, but anyone I know who has gone into grief counselling has been advised to focus on being a victim and how sad everything is.  Candidly, I don't believe many counsellors (psychiatrists/psychologists) have much real interest in people getting better.  Instead, they want them to become long-term clients. 

Bottom Line:  Any time "curing" someone runs contrary to the economic interests of the treating professional, I am highly suspicious. 

Slight adjunct:  I was at a bank machine one night and a young man who was obviously a little disturbed started a conversation with me.  I could tell he was genuine and was looking for help (I could see it in his face).  I found out his name was Mike, and after a couple of minutes of small talk he asked:  "Have you ever woken up in the middle of the night and you can't move?".  I told him of course I had.  He said that happens to him all the time and it terrifies him.  In fact, it keeps him from sleeping because he's afraid it will happen again.....and so I asked him "In all the times that you've ever had that happen, have you ever been frozen permanently, or does it always eventually wear off?"  He thought about it for a minute and replied "Well I guess it always wears off."  And so I went on "So if you know it always is going to wear off, next time it happens just accept it what's happening as temporary, focus on the fact you know the more you relax the sooner it will be over, and take deep breaths and until it lets go."  I'm not exaggerating to say this was a eureka moment for the kid.  You could see the wheels spinning in his head as he reconciled the implications of the fact that no matter what, this condition was always going to let go and he'd be fine.  And so I asked him whether he'd seen anyone about the condition before.  He replied that he'd been in government-funded treatment for the last 4-years!  ....and in that time, not once did any of the counsellors/psychiatrists/psychologists ever suggest what I had.  What did they do?  They let him talk himself in ever-increasing fear, never gave him a single solution, and medicated the everloving hell out of the kid which I'm convinced made him worse.

Absolutely f'n disgraceful....To say I'm not a fan of these practitioners because of this experience and several others is a HUGE understatement. 


Matthew.  :salute:
 

scoutfinch

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I would suggest that your argument (and Mr. Worthington's) prevents people who need treatment from seeking it on the basis that they will be seen as weak.

Given that neither you nor Mr. Worthington have a clue what military individuals have experienced, I think you are hardly qualified to comment on the application of grief counselling to military members. 

And to be perfectly frank, until you wear a uniform, I think you are staggeringly unfit to make comment even in light of your "moment of lucidity" when you miraculously provided both an instantaneous cure and solace to an unknown individual.  I am sure your moment of contact was sufficient to provide him clarity  (Actually, I think you are full of **** and you tell stories that you believe make you out as a hero -- I have NO DOUBT that your few moments with a stranger accomplished more than 4 years of counselling... whatever   ::))  Yes... you are hero, pal

Come back and talk to me once you have really talked to someone who has sustained a profound and tragic loss and then maybe I'll listen to how you told them to suck it up. 

Until then, gimme a break.
 

medaid

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
I can't speak on PTSD specifically, but anyone I know who has gone into grief counselling has been advised to focus on being a victim and how sad everything is.  Candidly, I don't believe many counsellors (psychiatrists/psychologists) have much real interest in people getting better.  Instead, they want them to become long-term clients. 

I can't speak on you personally, but most people I know who has practiced psychiatry, psychology or just health care in general will say that you're FULL OF SH^T. Okay, never mind, I will also say that you're FULL OF SH^T.

What, you REALLY think we like to see people suffer in the Health Care world? You think we ENJOY having people lay in beds, be constantly medicated, and borderline dependent because we would like them to become long-term "clients" ?

Hold on, who the FRACK are you to judge? Have you worked in the Health Care sector? Do you even REALISE that by your theory, and thought process, the Health Care sector, at least the government run sectors would be  bankrupt? That citizens would have to pay MORE taxes, and people would scream bloody murder THAT much more because we provide "inadequate" health care? HOW you ask? Well simple! Because we provide virtually free health care for those who can't afford it, they use the system to get better, which is GREAT! But, if we make them long-term "clients" as you'd like to say, they start to drain on the system. The more there are, the more they drain. Until one day the system can't cope with it anymore and they release those who are "less" severe then all the other long-term "clients". So, these mentally ill individuals are sent to the streets, where they now engage in drug use, prostitution or other forms of crime because most likely they don't have anyone to care for them. The ones who have someone to care for them are taken to homes, but sometimes despite the best try of the family and friends they are on the streets too.

Now, all these individuals who are supposed "long term clients" no longer have the system to care for them, because the system's tired out. What, you don't think the system gets tired? Because we want to medicate EVERYONE? Because money grows on trees? WTF?! Look around you, if you don't have a downtown or an eastside, or the slums or what ever, look no further then Down Town Vancouver, Toronto, Winnipeg where ever. There are large percentage of mentally ill people that the system can't provide for, and they try their damned best to do it. It's a vicious cycle that feeds upon itself.

Have you also realized that the modern day people aren't that smart? That many a times the patient requests the physician or the practitioner to prescribe medication? Because they don't want to have to "deal" with their "problems"? But whatever, you're right. You are absolutely correct! Every time that a patient calls for an ambulance, or gets admitted to a hospital, or walks into the clinic, the FIRST damn thing that crosses ALL of our minds as health care professionals is "How do I make MORE money off of this person?"

....Frack off...

Cdn Blackshirt said:
Bottom Line:  Any time "curing" someone runs contrary to the economic interests of the treating professional, I am highly suspicious. 

Right...sure... you want to pay more taxes? You want to support MY bills? Because if you haven't noticed, we ALL pay taxes, every single ONE of us. Even the doctors, nurses, paramedics, RTs, various techs and specialists. We get taxed MORE because we're supposedly in a higher tax bracket. So, explain to me how does curing someone run contrary to my economic interests?

You're not highly suspicious, you're highly....


Cdn Blackshirt said:
Slight adjunct:  I was at a bank machine one night and a young man who was obviously a little disturbed started a conversation with me.  I could tell he was genuine and was looking for help (I could see it in his face).  I found out his name was Mike, and after a couple of minutes of small talk he asked:  "Have you ever woken up in the middle of the night and you can't move?".  I told him of course I had.  He said that happens to him all the time and it terrifies him.  In fact, it keeps him from sleeping because he's afraid it will happen again.....and so I asked him "In all the times that you've ever had that happen, have you ever been frozen permanently, or does it always eventually wear off?"  He thought about it for a minute and replied "Well I guess it always wears off."  And so I went on "So if you know it always is going to wear off, next time it happens just accept it what's happening as temporary, focus on the fact you know the more you relax the sooner it will be over, and take deep breaths and until it lets go."  I'm not exaggerating to say this was a eureka moment for the kid.  You could see the wheels spinning in his head as he reconciled the implications of the fact that no matter what, this condition was always going to let go and he'd be fine.  And so I asked him whether he'd seen anyone about the condition before.  He replied that he'd been in government-funded treatment for the last 4-years!  ....and in that time, not once did any of the counsellors/psychiatrists/psychologists ever suggest what I had.  What did they do?  They let him talk himself in ever-increasing fear, never gave him a single solution, and medicated the everloving hell out of the kid which I'm convinced made him worse.

Hey dude...that's fracking WONDERFUL! Would you like a medal? I climbed into a wreckage of a car that flipped end over end the other day providing c-spine stabilization to the patient, while directing by-standers to clear the area and ask people not to crowd around. While talking to the patient asking for a history, while checking that he's breathing sounds are semi-ok without using a stethoscope because my hands are busy. All the same time directing another bystander to call 9-1-1/EMS and relay the message as I tell it to her.

There, I just told my hero story. Yay! WOOOT! YAY!!! WOW! LOOOK AT ME!!!!!! Come on! Somebody give me an applause! Because I did it before the firefighters or the paramedics could get to him! Frack that! I didn't do it for glory, I did it for the fact that a fellow human being's life was in danger.

Cdn Blackshirt said:
Absolutely f'n disgraceful....To say I'm not a fan of these practitioners because of this experience and several others is a HUGE understatement. 

You're fracking disgraceful to be criticizing a sector and a world that you've never ventured. I have yet hear two physicians or practitioners come together and say "I wonder how much I can f^ck with his mind today"

Take your complaints and put it into writing and submit it to your health authority. I could care less that you're not a fan. Your moaning and complaining serves no one but yourself, and I find THAT disgusting. What ever... I've spent too much energy on this already.
 

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MedTech said:
There, I just told my hero story. Yay! WOOOT! YAY!!! WOW! LOOOK AT ME!!!!!! Come on! Somebody give me an applause! Because I did it before the firefighters or the paramedics could get to him! Frack that! I didn't do it for glory, I did it for the fact that a fellow human being's life was in danger.

I hoping that you don't think your own little rant just came off as any better; it didn't.

 

The Bread Guy

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I think if it was as easy as saying, "I'll just buck up and keep living my life", we wouldn't be seeing what we're seeing...
 

CountDC

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ArmyVern said:
I hoping that you don't think your own little rant just came off as any better; it didn't.

That's for sure - guess some people can't handly any negativity - perhaps counselling is in order!!

Got news for you folks - lots of us outsiders of the field are not fans.  Although I do not work as a psych or counsellor I have had the displeasure of dealing with them several times over the years and found the ones I did deal with as useless pill pushers. One had a different diagnoses for the patient every week and changed meds almost as often for a year and was wrong everytime. When my mother went to one it was the worse she looked and felt her whole life. When she finally stopped it was like a new life to her - she became more lifely, looked healthier and could remember things.  Her sister had the same problem - went to visit one day and every 2-3 minutes she was asking my name and staring off into space - way out of character for her. She stopped the meds and was sharp as a whip.

I am sure there must be some people that have benefitted from these services but I am nor will I ever be a big fan. In the past it was too easy to become a counsellor or phsycologist as anyone could stick up a shingle and claim to be one - no special training required. I also wonder about it everytime something happens how there is a big flood of these people.  Do we really need a crap load of them everytime some kid gets killed? When I was in junior high there was a well known and liked lad that was brutally raped and murdered. We attended school, some girls cried in the classroom and halls but classes went on as normal, people talked to each other when we had the chance, some went to the funeral others had a farewell party.  We all coped and got on with life.
 

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I am not an expert on anything...

But what I do know about this is that there is no one answer to the problem. Every individual will respond differently to every approach. Many people deal well with the "stiff upper lip" (yes you seen bad stuff. We understand. Now lets move on and get on with your life). Some even do well with the soft shoulder treatment.

As long as it is recognized and the problem is addressed, the first step is done right.

To say one way of dealing with it is better than the other is wrong.


p.s.-military counsellors do not care about building a client base.

 

Towards_the_gap

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TCBF said:
......................
That sounds easier than it is. But researchers found that those who dwell on a tragedy and endure counselling, group therapy and incessantly talking about the trauma with others, or with a counsellor, ensures that they cannot easily move on and that the tragedy is further embedded in their psyche. This can affect future mental health. ............................

........................Simon Wessley, professor of psychological medicine who led the Cochrane research, found that in a study of 3,000 British soldiers who'd seen and experienced massacres and cold-blooded killings, only 3% suffered long-term trauma.
"Undoubtedly some people suffer," Prof. Wessley said, but "the toxic effect of counselling is that some people begin to see themselves as having a mental health problem when they do not." .....................................




I have quoted that which is most pertinent from Mr Worthingtons article. I do not believe he is saying 'those who seek help are weak', but rather 'some people simply do not need help', and in that, I believe he is correct.

I have been through the 'Critical Incident Stress Management' process, the one which takes place within 24-48 hours of trauma, and whilst I think it may have helped, I also know I've had no need to 'talk it over' with therapists since, and also, I did find the process to be a bit rich. It happened, and I'm still alive, so I will keep on living, and put it behind me. What I've seen so far of the CF in comparison to the british army is that they are perhaps too good at seeking out those who need help, in that those who may be able to 'suck it up and carry on', are made to feel that the absence of anything wrong is in fact an indicator that something is wrong. Maybe the 'stiff upper lip' technique should be recognized as a possible coping mechanism.

 

Cdn Blackshirt

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MedTech said:
I can't speak on you personally, but most people I know who has practiced psychiatry, psychology or just health care in general will say that you're FULL OF SH^T. Okay, never mind, I will also say that you're FULL OF SH^T.

What, you REALLY think we like to see people suffer in the Health Care world? You think we ENJOY having people lay in beds, be constantly medicated, and borderline dependent because we would like them to become long-term "clients" ?

Hold on, who the FRACK are you to judge? Have you worked in the Health Care sector? Do you even REALISE that by your theory, and thought process, the Health Care sector, at least the government run sectors would be  bankrupt? That citizens would have to pay MORE taxes, and people would scream bloody murder THAT much more because we provide "inadequate" health care? HOW you ask? Well simple! Because we provide virtually free health care for those who can't afford it, they use the system to get better, which is GREAT! But, if we make them long-term "clients" as you'd like to say, they start to drain on the system. The more there are, the more they drain. Until one day the system can't cope with it anymore and they release those who are "less" severe then all the other long-term "clients". So, these mentally ill individuals are sent to the streets, where they now engage in drug use, prostitution or other forms of crime because most likely they don't have anyone to care for them. The ones who have someone to care for them are taken to homes, but sometimes despite the best try of the family and friends they are on the streets too.

Now, all these individuals who are supposed "long term clients" no longer have the system to care for them, because the system's tired out. What, you don't think the system gets tired? Because we want to medicate EVERYONE? Because money grows on trees? WTF?! Look around you, if you don't have a downtown or an eastside, or the slums or what ever, look no further then Down Town Vancouver, Toronto, Winnipeg where ever. There are large percentage of mentally ill people that the system can't provide for, and they try their damned best to do it. It's a vicious cycle that feeds upon itself.

Have you also realized that the modern day people aren't that smart? That many a times the patient requests the physician or the practitioner to prescribe medication? Because they don't want to have to "deal" with their "problems"? But whatever, you're right. You are absolutely correct! Every time that a patient calls for an ambulance, or gets admitted to a hospital, or walks into the clinic, the FIRST damn thing that crosses ALL of our minds as health care professionals is "How do I make MORE money off of this person?"

....Frack off...

Right...sure... you want to pay more taxes? You want to support MY bills? Because if you haven't noticed, we ALL pay taxes, every single ONE of us. Even the doctors, nurses, paramedics, RTs, various techs and specialists. We get taxed MORE because we're supposedly in a higher tax bracket. So, explain to me how does curing someone run contrary to my economic interests?

You're not highly suspicious, you're highly....


Hey dude...that's fracking WONDERFUL! Would you like a medal? I climbed into a wreckage of a car that flipped end over end the other day providing c-spine stabilization to the patient, while directing by-standers to clear the area and ask people not to crowd around. While talking to the patient asking for a history, while checking that he's breathing sounds are semi-ok without using a stethoscope because my hands are busy. All the same time directing another bystander to call 9-1-1/EMS and relay the message as I tell it to her.

There, I just told my hero story. Yay! WOOOT! YAY!!! WOW! LOOOK AT ME!!!!!! Come on! Somebody give me an applause! Because I did it before the firefighters or the paramedics could get to him! Frack that! I didn't do it for glory, I did it for the fact that a fellow human being's life was in danger.

You're fracking disgraceful to be criticizing a sector and a world that you've never ventured. I have yet hear two physicians or practitioners come together and say "I wonder how much I can f^ck with his mind today"

Take your complaints and put it into writing and submit it to your health authority. I could care less that you're not a fan. Your moaning and complaining serves no one but yourself, and I find THAT disgusting. What ever... I've spent too much energy on this already.

Dude, that is one of the most laughable things I've read in a long time.    ;D

Did you even read what I wrote?  Your reaction and diatribe is so far off the mark as to make me think you've got some serious problems of your own which you should probably address (in fact if you have been dealing with a psychiatrist so far, you should probably fire them as your anger management skills leave a lot to be desired).

Of note:
1)  I did work in the medical field for 4-years and still have numerous friends and acquantainces in the industry.
2)  In fact, I was out at dinner for dinner with my old nursing staff last week (3 of whom used to work at the Psychiatric facility in St. Thomas) and this was one of many topics covered.
3)  In those 4-years I had the opportunity to pick the brains of some excellent doctors and nurses to diagnose what was wrong with our healthcare system.  The views therefore are not pulled out of thin air as you suggest but are a synposis of the views of somewhere between 35-45 medical professional I've dealt with (not to mention I've dated a number of doctors). 
4)  I have a background in psychiatry and psychology having taken several university courses on both topics, and having followed both up with significant study after school was completed.

In any case, thanks for the chuckle....

The funny part is you just demonstrated flawlessly the "God-Complex ego" that is everything wrong with so many of our current medical professional. 

How dare we question you, right?

BS.  In particular in the field of psychiatry/psychology, if you look at measureable outcomes (that is people who actually get CURED), patients are doing about as well as those undergoing 18th Century surgery - you know when they would go in and randomly remove a gallbladder or some other organ in order to relieve symptoms they didn't understand).

Bottom Line:  You did more to make my point than I ever could....

Well done.  I take my hat off to you....


Matthew.    ;)

P.S.  Just to lower your opinion of psychiatrists just a little bit, I highly recommend you do your due diligence into the outcomes of some of the pharmaceuticals they most regularly prescribe (I have....).  Bottom Line:  They are more often part of the problem than the solution....and the fact psychiatrists/psychologists write chits for them as if they were tic-tacs makes them part of the problem too. 

P.P.S.  If you decide you want to have a rational debate on this (rather than the previous rant you threw), just let me know as I think the public discourse on the topic is extremely worthwhile....especially if there are parents on this board who are being told to prescribe Ritalin or other products to their young children.
 

Fusaki

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Isn't one of Grossman's Pillars of the Bulletproof Mind "Never feel sorry for yourself" or something like that? I never had the chance to attend that seminar, but if anyone here has a quick rundown of what those "Pillars" are would be appreciated.

This "stiff upper lip" business seems to more or less fall in line with the section in On Combat called "No Macho men, no Pity Parties"

One danger in studying PTSD is that we might be tempted to identify all the ways that things did not go perfectly, and then use that as an excuse to have a sulking pity party...

...Do you see how we can walk the middle road between the mindless macho men on one side, and the pity party on the other?

I think wallowing in self pity is bad for guys. When people say "Oh, woe is me" they're getting wrapped up in the negative, and that can't be good for anyone's mental health. But there is a difference between saying "I'm hard, and this shit doesn't get to me" and "It sucked, but it's in the past, and I won't let it ruin my life". One is the Macho Man, and the other is the Stiff Upper Lip.

I think there might be something to this...
 

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I don't remember everything Col Grossman said in his seminars and don't have the book handy, but one thing I distinctly recall is him saying if you need help get it. 

Edited for spelling.
 

Michael OLeary

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
Of note:
1)  I did work in the medical field for 4-years and still have numerous friends and acquantainces in the industry.
2)  In fact, I was out at dinner for dinner with my old nursing staff last week (3 of whom used to work at the Psychiatric facility in St. Thomas) and this was one of many topics covered.
3)  In those 4-years I had the opportunity to pick the brains of some excellent doctors and nurses to diagnose what was wrong with our healthcare system.  The views therefore are not pulled out of thin air as you suggest but are a synposis of the views of somewhere between 35-45 medical professional I've dealt with (not to mention I've dated a number of doctors). 
4)  I have a background in psychiatry and psychology having taken several university courses on both topics, and having followed both up with significant study after school was completed.

Curiously though, you don't actually say what your actual job was or what specific qualifications you have in the field.
 

the 48th regulator

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
Dude, that is one of the most laughable things I've read in a long time.     ;D

Did you even read what I wrote?  Your reaction and diatribe is so far off the mark as to make me think you've got some serious problems of your own which you should probably address (in fact if you have been dealing with a psychiatrist so far, you should probably fire them as your anger management skills leave a lot to be desired).

Of note:
1)  I did work in the medical field for 4-years and still have numerous friends and acquantainces in the industry.
2)  In fact, I was out at dinner for dinner with my old nursing staff last week (3 of whom used to work at the Psychiatric facility in St. Thomas) and this was one of many topics covered.
3)  In those 4-years I had the opportunity to pick the brains of some excellent doctors and nurses to diagnose what was wrong with our healthcare system.  The views therefore are not pulled out of thin air as you suggest but are a synposis of the views of somewhere between 35-45 medical professional I've dealt with (not to mention I've dated a number of doctors). 
4)  I have a background in psychiatry and psychology having taken several university courses on both topics, and having followed both up with significant study after school was completed.

In any case, thanks for the chuckle....

The funny part is you just demonstrated flawlessly the "God-Complex ego" that is everything wrong with so many of our current medical professional. 

How dare we question you, right?

BS.  In particular in the field of psychiatry/psychology, if you look at measureable outcomes (that is people who actually get CURED), patients are doing about as well as those undergoing 18th Century surgery - you know when they would go in and randomly remove a gallbladder or some other organ in order to relieve symptoms they didn't understand).

Bottom Line:  You did more to make my point than I ever could....

Well done.  I take my hat off to you....


Matthew.    ;)

P.S.  Just to lower your opinion of psychiatrists just a little bit, I highly recommend you do your due diligence into the outcomes of some of the pharmaceuticals they most regularly prescribe (I have....).  Bottom Line:  They are more often part of the problem than the solution....and the fact psychiatrists/psychologists write chits for them as if they were tic-tacs makes them part of the problem too. 

P.P.S.  If you decide you want to have a rational debate on this (rather than the previous rant you threw), just let me know as I think the public discourse on the topic is extremely worthwhile....especially if there are parents on this board who are being told to prescribe Ritalin or other products to their young children.

I have been treadted by all the people and methods that you deride, and have been thankful I have.

I refute your "statement" as I find it based on "Opinion", not facts.

dileas

tess
 

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
Dude, that is one of the most laughable things I've read in a long time.     ;D

Did you even read what I wrote?  Your reaction and diatribe is so far off the mark as to make me think you've got some serious problems of your own which you should probably address (in fact if you have been dealing with a psychiatrist so far, you should probably fire them as your anger management skills leave a lot to be desired).

Of note:
1)  I did work in the medical field for 4-years and still have numerous friends and acquantainces in the industry.
2)  In fact, I was out at dinner for dinner with my old nursing staff last week (3 of whom used to work at the Psychiatric facility in St. Thomas) and this was one of many topics covered.
3)  In those 4-years I had the opportunity to pick the brains of some excellent doctors and nurses to diagnose what was wrong with our healthcare system.  The views therefore are not pulled out of thin air as you suggest but are a synposis of the views of somewhere between 35-45 medical professional I've dealt with (not to mention I've dated a number of doctors). 
4)  I have a background in psychiatry and psychology having taken several university courses on both topics, and having followed both up with significant study after school was completed.

In any case, thanks for the chuckle....

The funny part is you just demonstrated flawlessly the "God-Complex ego" that is everything wrong with so many of our current medical professional. 

How dare we question you, right?

BS.  In particular in the field of psychiatry/psychology, if you look at measureable outcomes (that is people who actually get CURED), patients are doing about as well as those undergoing 18th Century surgery - you know when they would go in and randomly remove a gallbladder or some other organ in order to relieve symptoms they didn't understand).

Bottom Line:  You did more to make my point than I ever could....

Well done.  I take my hat off to you....


Matthew.    ;)

P.S.  Just to lower your opinion of psychiatrists just a little bit, I highly recommend you do your due diligence into the outcomes of some of the pharmaceuticals they most regularly prescribe (I have....).  Bottom Line:  They are more often part of the problem than the solution....and the fact psychiatrists/psychologists write chits for them as if they were tic-tacs makes them part of the problem too. 

P.P.S.  If you decide you want to have a rational debate on this (rather than the previous rant you threw), just let me know as I think the public discourse on the topic is extremely worthwhile....especially if there are parents on this board who are being told to prescribe Ritalin or other products to their young children.


So based on four years of working in some form of healthcare system, and talking to some co-workers from back in the day this is how you have formed your opinion, and get your inside information, lovely. I will tell you this for most phychiatrists, meds are a last resort.

PTSD while sometimes can be overdone, its a legimate and important thing to label correctly, and it does cause adverse effects, simply ignoring the problem doesn't work, it actually causes the body to backfire in the sense that you can ignore it when your awake, but you can't when your asleep, along with a whole other list of symptoms. PTSD can go from mild to severe, a patient with mild case might get over it in 6 months to a year depending on cause, a person with servere PTSD might never get over it.

Most doctors that deal with any type of mental health perfer to treat the person before the symptom, by this I mean that if you have some clinical depression type symptoms before your put on drugs, they generally suggest seeking other resources first such as therapy etc. If you have explore those options yes, then generally the white coats will prescribe drugs.

People are not just given high dose meds and kicked out the door, most people are given a cocktail of low dose meds, and therapy, or other things that fall into that catergory.

Combat cause PTSD has been studied and it is different from most forms of PTSD which people get from other types of trauma etc. I personally can't comment on it, I've never had it, nor do I wish it on anyone, but I do know it like any other type of mental health issue, should not be ignored, and the answer does not lie in telling anyone, to suck it up. The mental health system while at times is broken, does work and has proven to time and time again, and that I will speak from personal experince.

I also have experince working in the healthcare field(EMS), and no offense if you were ever the one that was presented to treat me with that attitude be it reguarding mental or physical health I would tell you to go screw yourself, because what I don't need is some idiot with no med school training telling me that if I just ignore things they will go away. 

IMO,We all have our demons, but no one should have to live with them if they can help it.

Ironically you pointed out that Medtech had a "God-complex ego" that amused me. In other words "Hey, kettle, meet the pot"


S.Stewart
 

Cdn Blackshirt

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the 48th regulator said:
I have been treadted by all the people and methods that you deride, and have been thankful I have.

I refute your "statement" as I find it based on "Opinion", not facts.

dileas

tess

I never presented my statement as fact.  I presented my statement as opinion and then after apparently not being entitled to that opinion provided the context on which I base those opinions.

Psychology and most science is always in a state of flux where were we asses current models based on the preponderance of the evidence and where truth is identified based on the measured outcomes.  In this case, I think a majority of psychiatry is at a tipping point towards a "The Emperor is not wearing any clothes" revelation, specifically because on-the-whole, people are NOT being cured and much like diabetes and even allergies are being sheparded into long-term treatment cycles almost invariably with pharmaceuticals. 

Another adjunct (hopefully one I'm entitled to tell), about four years ago I developed a serious skin rash.  It appeared on my chest and neck and was incredibly inflamed and it literally felt like my blood was boiling.  I'd sweat, and it was so bad it often kept me from sleeping.  Not being a dummy (I've been reading the Berkley Medical Journal since I was 12), I rotated through a series of anti-histamines/anti-inflammatories over about a 2-month timeframe to try to get it sorted out....obviously to little effect.

I then went to a series of doctors and the process went like this:

Family Doctor -  It's probably just an allergy.  Here's a prescription for a new anti-histamine and a topical corticosteroids.  I was dubious since I'd already tried other antihistamines, but I tried it anyway.

....after 2 months without improvement, after multiple requests I was referred to a dermatologist....waiting 2 months for the appointment.

Dermatologist - Began writing on her prescription pad before I even told her my symptoms.  Tried to shoe me out the door within 5 minutes.  Had no interest in any of the symptoms at all....just wanted to write a script and assembly line the next person in.  I told her I waited 2 months through this hell to see her and at the least she was going to hear what was wrong before sticking prescriptions in my hand.  Described the symptoms....not a clue.  Apparently if it didn't fit into her one solution plan (her prescription pad) she didn't know what to do.

.....I then pulled every contact and every favour I was owed by my medical professional network to get into see an allergist....

Allergist - Did the usual tests....no surprises and nothing that should be causing the rash.  His long-term solution....put me on Claritin indefinitely.  ????  I asked: "So you're perfectly willing to try to treat the symptom even though you don't know what the cause is?"  His answer, after seemingly confounded by the question: "Well....yes."

At that point, I determined I wasn't going to get the solution from a healthcare professional, and although they may be able to treat the surface conditions I was very concerned about what the underlying condition was doing to my body that I couldn't see.

And so I did my own research and identified that I most likely had lesions in my intentestines which were allowing waste matter to transfer directly into the blood stream.  That waste matter is then identified as a foreign invader by the immune system which literally freaks out inside the blood.  My system was then trying to excrete the waste product through the skin in my chest and neck which is why the symptoms manifested themselves there.

By trial and error, I then ran a series of tests eliminating different food types (to see if it was a simple food allergy), then fasting (which started to show signs of improvement), and then eventually identified the most likely cause as a Candises Yeast Bloom.  The process is as per above whereby the bloom becomes so large it affixes itself to the lining of the intestines and actually creates perforations.  The additional downside with yeast is that unlike your common intestinal bacteria, when it processes food (in particular sugars), it releases a series of toxins.  With that hypothesis in-hand I identified an anti-yeast treatment called Candicin.  In the end after less than 2-weeks I had completely gotten rid of the problem and haven't had a recurring symptom since.

In triumph I called all three doctors to let them know the outcome and that I'd identified my specific problem, described the treatment, and the recovery timelines with the objective being if they saw a repeat in any patient, they'd immediately know how to treat it (in follow-up. 

Want to wager how many gave a flying crap?  None.  The solution (an over-the-counter anti-fungal/anti-microbial) doesn't fit on their prescription pads and therefore will never be used as a tool in their toolbox.

....end of adjunct.

My point (again, I'll clarify because it appears it's not obvious it's an opinion) simply is that regardless of your experience and the experience of others, my experience (and my concern) is that too many of these guys have a mindset that the only tool in their toolbox is the all-mighty hammer (prescription pad), and nothing else.  In your case, the hammer worked....but the fact they aren't willing to look at anything from any other viewpoint means there are ton of people who are suffering absolutely needlessly....and as 'Healers' these guys need to step up.

Lastly, as per my reply to MedTech, I suggest everyone does some reading on Anti-Depressents in particular because to say they're a scam would be a generous oversimplification.  I'm not going to bother to post my summary because some will choose to write it off.  Instead I advise everyone to do their own research, and if they find an interesting article, add it to this thread for others to read as well....



Cheers, Matthew.  :salute:
 

ArmyRick

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scoutfinch, you typed "Mr. Worthington have a clue what military individuals have experienced"

Oh Really? Mr Worthington fought as a patricia during the korean war. So yeah, he does have a clue as to what he is talking about. As far as his opinion, its his and if thats how he chooses to deal with his memories of war, so be it.
 

Cdn Blackshirt

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Just for those piling on....

There seems to be a lot holding the civvy to a higher standard than yourselves.

I haven't seen one of you question what MedTech's psychiatric training is how much research he's done on anti-depressants or prescription-writing, nor mention the fact he attacked me based on my opinion as if his opinion was actually fact (something you ALL attacked me for).

You want to talk about about "Hey kettle, you're totally black" situation....this is it.

Candidly, I don't care if you all question me, my motives or my qualifications.  I'm perfectly willing to answer any and all questions.   That's the difference between having a God-Complex and not.  I'll debate anything anyone wants to talk about.  Those with a God-Complex are dismissive arrogant twats who don't feel those who have a contrary opinion are even worthy of a discussion.  See the above posts to note the difference.  And open analysis and debate is how all science is supposed to work.  You put all the data on the table and figure things out and if ANY opinion can't stand the scrutiny of conterargument or objective data sets (which those with the God Complex try to dismiss out of hand due to their divine faith in their 'knowledge'), the opinion is then to be dismissed.  But other insiders' opinions should have all the same scrutiny that my opinions appear to warrant.  To not hold them to that same standard guarantees that whatever outcome occurs here will be biased, flawed and
Bottom Line:  If you want to talk about psychiatric outcomes and you disagree with my opinion, post some analysis on the topic from outside source.  Show me success rates.  Show me cure rates.  Can't find them?   Hmmm.....if they were curing at high rates, don't you think the drug companies would be trumpetting that success from the tree-tops?  And yet in comparison, they have been recently regularly foisted on their own petard re: the actual impact of their drugs and how they manipulate data, hide studies, and generally misrepresent both the benefits and side effects of their products.  Hmmmm..... Short Version is that those that resort to calling names are using the  coward's way out of an argument.  You want to argue with my opinion - It's easy.  Present evidence to the contrary.

RE:  Michael's question re: My role in the Medical Field - I was a the Managing Director for a company specializing in Medical Testing and Surveillance with corporate clients all over Canada.  In my role, I managed a team of 12-15 nurses, one Medical Director (MD), and oversaw outsourced work from about 20 clinics spread across the country.  Assessments including everything audiology to physicals to psychiatric leave evaluation.  

Feel free to add additional questions on-topic and I will reply later tonight.  



Cheers, Matthew.   :salute:
 

Teeps74

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Others beat me to it, and said it better then I could. "Stiff upper lip..." hmmm, well perhaps for some, but others do need other assistance. Deriding the entire professions of psychological and psychiatric professions is overly simplistic and not helpful to the greater good.

Are there bad shrinks? Sure. Just as there are bad Pres guys/gals. Just as there are bad Reg F guys/gals. Etc etc. Smearing all with the same brush does no one any real good, and just smacks of an elitism that is unwarranted.
 

the 48th regulator

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Teeps74 said:
Others beat me to it, and said it better then I could. "Stiff upper lip..." hmmm, well perhaps for some, but others do need other assistance. Deriding the entire professions of psychological and psychiatric professions is overly simplistic and not helpful to the greater good.

Are there bad shrinks? Sure. Just as there are bad Pres guys/gals. Just as there are bad Reg F guys/gals. Etc etc. Smearing all with the same brush does no one any real good, and just smacks of an elitism that is unwarranted.
Bingo,

Excellent statement Teeps.

Which is why I do not agree with you, Cdn Blackshirt.  Your "Opinion" can actually cause a troop to shy away from getting the treatment, even the all-mighty hammer (prescription pad), which is dangerous.

Although I would like to see what your version of (an over-the-counter anti-fungal/anti-microbial) answer would be for a person suffering from PTSD.

When dealing with medical opinions, careful what you are preaching, as it can do more harm than good.

dileas

tess
 
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