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St Jean, needs changes?

ArmyRick

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I searched and i didn't find if there was athread out there for this one. So here goes. I am an NCO who went through Cornwallis. Yes, I am a half dinosaur (give me ten more years and I will be a full fledge dino). I train SQ candidates (Because I am stirring the hornets nest, I won't go into specifics).

The quality of training and leadership in St Jean is not effective in my opinion. Why ?

All too often I have seen the products coming from St Jean not being properly trainined. No, its not one or two troops either. Its alot of them. I see poor weapons handling (I knew C7 rifles inside out when I left wally world), incorrect drill movements (Come on this is a biggie of BMQ?) and hear horror stories of poor leadership (over and over again).
(1) A troop lost peice of kit in more than a week before graduating and while trying to submit a lost stolen report, they are frequently blown off by the course staff and told they can solve the problem at they're next training center. This is a huge head ache and a ugly problem for the staff at these schools to deal with baggage from some where else. It is the responsibility of the instructor/leader of the troop at THAT TIME! Some of the items are ID cards (a biggie), ground sheets, combat boots, canteen bottles, set of combats (all these are seperate troops by the way).

(2) In -40 'C weather, telling troops to climb into an arctic tent and turn off the stoves and lanterns.

(3) LOG NCO teaching troops small arms lessons and they pick up their bad habits.

The worst thing is that St Jean will be soon starting the enhanced BMQ (BMQ and SQ). I fear for the standard of trg for the CF. As I have said before, the CF is it's own worst enemy at times.

Opinions and input ???
 
I'll have to show this to my father (WO w/26 yrs in) he isn't fond of St. Jean for reasons similar to yours..

I've been waiting to see some opinions on St. Jean and the late Cornwallis to be truthful I hope this topic gets somewhere.
 
Quote,
It is the responsibility of the instructor/leader of the troop at THAT TIME! Some of the items are ID cards (a biggie),

...well this happened to me in 1978 in Cornwallis, someone decided they needed my wallet more than I did and I arrived in Petawawa without an ID card.  I think sometimes its so much easier to wax poeticlly about the "way it used to be" but we forget that things were that way then too.
 
off topic a bit but when will St. Jean be offering the new course BMQ-SQ combined?
 
Good post....
We should all strive to improve the level of instruction that is going on these days.....

I have no personal knowledge of St Jean, but I've seen the level of instruction going down for years now.
...budget cuts...trying to do more with less....fewer training aids....less equipment....and a generation of instructors who didn't have the benefit of these items when they were taught.....they can all result in a lesser product.
I think that we've lost a so much now so that even an infusion of money/equipment will be too little to bring us back to where we should be without a concentrated effort....

ps. 

" (3) LOG NCO teaching troops small arms lessons and they pick up their bad habits."

I take offence.....instructors passing on bad habits can come from any trade including cbt arms....let's concentrate on eliminating bad instruction no matter where it comes from....

Cheers
AM


 
a23trucker said:
" (3) LOG NCO teaching troops small arms lessons and they pick up their bad habits."
I take offence.....instructors passing on bad habits can come from any trade including cbt arms....let's concentrate on eliminating bad instruction no matter where it comes from....
Hmmm... didn't we have a post recently where an Infantryman said he didn't do the C6 I.A. as per the book, and in which he suggested things were like that across the Army ?? The C6 is not taught on Basic TRG... so where do they pick up those bad habits ??
 
I was the last 'B' Coy OC at CFRS Cornwallis. Mike B's Dad was the Chief Trg Offr.  As the course had shrunk from 20+, to 12, to 9, to 8 weeks, we witnessed not so much a poor level instruction as a less time to practice drills.  Once the training shifted to strictly Saint Jean, the philosophy on training failures also changed to let the Battle School sort them out.

There are approx. 1000 Saint Jean grads facing basic skills fade in Borden waiting for their next level of training (QL3, Comms etc.)

The actual time spent perfecting drills from enrolment until arrival at units is minimal. 

Dinosaurs like us are comparing 9 week wonders to 22+ week of drills, drills, drills.  Sorting out kit issues is a pain on a Base that caters to more than Basic Training.  The days of 19 platoons of strictly recruits at Cornwallis are distant memories.  It is hard to fix something that has fallen so far away from the original standard. 

The CDS has more than hinted at the old Depot concept returning with civies arriving at units for Basic and QL3, that may be the only way to set a better standard for training and molding of the young people with new millennium attitudes that walk into the recruiting centres today.
 
"The CDS has more than hinted at the old Depot concept returning with civies arriving at units for Basic and QL3, that may be the only way to set a better standard for training and molding of the young people with new millennium attitudes that walk into the recruiting centres today."

Good. I think the idea of a platoon starting together and going through both basic and SQ (combat arms, DP1) together is good.

Trucker, I will be blunt. IMHO. You may take all the offence you want. The infantry NCO who is a poor small arms instructor is the exception not the norm and I have dealt with several LOG NCOs who performed basic soldiering skills poorly with the old excuses I hate such as...
"I'm a trucker/bin rat/cook, I don't do this sh*t" or
"I'm a cook, what do I ever need a C7 for?"

I am sorry to bruise feelings, but if you have been in your trade a while, then you know some of your bretheren are giving LOG guys that do drive the body a bad name.

I even worked with a great LOG officer who was typically disgusted by the lower NCMs of his branch.

Going back to St Jean, some where when people join the forces, they need to have all their admin sorted out. If St Jean can't handle it, then give the resources and do it at the training centers (do from the ground up)..
 
My last platoon at Cornwallis became my first troop at the old RCA Battle School in Shilo.  Taking the same guys from recruit day one to QL3 grads was rewarding and they were soldiers of which, I and my instructors were proud.

Just in time clothing delivery through a civilian contractor sucks as compared to being able to march the soldier over to Supply section and sorting out then and there.
 
Gunner:
"As the course had shrunk from 20+, to 12, to 9, to 8 weeks, we witnessed not so much a poor level instruction as a less time to practice drills." ........maybe time is the answer.....

Rick:
"several LOG NCOs who performed basic soldiering skills poorly with the old excuses I hate such as...
"I'm a trucker/bin rat/cook, I don't do this sh*t" or "I'm a cook, what do I ever need a C7 for?""

I agree that we run into these poor soldiers.
I don't stand for this and please correct any pers that you run into with this opinion!
CSS still have to be soldiers first, this is even more important in the era of the non-contiguous battle fd.
I'm quite proud to say that many of my soldiers have topped the PLQ and other leadership crses....

Cheers
AM
 
Jungle said:
Hmmm... didn't we have a post recently where an Infantryman said he didn't do the C6 I.A. as per the book, and in which he suggested things were like that across the Army ?? The C6 is not taught on Basic TRG... so where do they pick up those bad habits ??

Probably at their armouries on a Tuesday night - because all of our wpns drills are taught as per the book - every time. Foot drill - well, thats another story.... ;D
 
Trucker, I will be blunt. IMHO. You may take all the offence you want. The infantry NCO who is a poor small arms instructor is the exception not the norm and I have dealt with several LOG NCOs who performed basic soldiering skills poorly with the old excuses I hate such as...
"I'm a trucker/bin rat/cook, I don't do this sh*t" or
"I'm a cook, what do I ever need a C7 for?"
I have seen these people too, but I have also had the pleasure of working with some CSS soldiers who were just that: soldiers. (I include some very fine MAs in this). We have cooks, EME techs, drivers and supply techs who are every bit as much of a credit to the Army as their Cbt A brethren. The piss-poor "job-ism" attitude is, IMHO, a result of our screwed up purple system that for nearly 40 years now has been teaching these folks that they are busdrivers/cooks/clerks first and soldiers second (if at all...) Then the larger CF world provides them ample opportunity to foster this bad attitude, especially as people with this view rise up the ranks. Change the system: admit that Unification has done terrible damage and let's get ourselves to a system focused on operational readiness, with all support training tightly under the control of the CLS, and everybody with a healthy strong service identity. The operational need is for jointness, not Unification.

Cheers.
 
Having instructed at "the Mega" in summer 2000 (incremental instructor on the BOTC), I can attest to the lack of resources. Imaging having a 20 man section all to yourself (no 2I/C) or working a 40 man platoon with a staff of 4 (Pl Comd, 2I/C One and Two section commander).

For most periods of instruction, there is less than one minute per candidate to offer extra help, correction etc. (One section commander teaches drill, for example, while the other prowls around correcting). The amount of training aids was "just" the required amount, so if there was a admin screw-up, broken part etc., you were SOL. The distances between classes, drill hall, mess etc. made going from class to class a challenge (especially since they seemed to take perverse pleasure in scheduling classes at opposite ends of the complex.) Finally, there was very little time for admin (we fought for admin periods to deal with screw-ups), and of course, little opportunity. With no section 2I/C, the idea of having the MCpl take the candidate to the payy office, supply section etc. was just that; an idea.

I will state this was by far the most difficult environment I have ever taught in (and I include ATC Meaford, Gagetown (RESO 1&2), Petawawa (Leadership Coy) and any number of "local" courses), and only by driving the body for 12+ hr every day could we produce "quality" candidates. I take pride in producing a well trained soldier, and my compatriots in the platoon felt the same, so we sucked back and did what had to be done, but we were also quite burnt out at the end. I can only imagine what it must be like for the full time staff at St Jean who don't get to go home at the end of the summer....

Given the current resource environment, I would have to say the only way to get consistent quality soldiers is to concentrate resources on the training system so that sections have the proper number of staff (Pl Comd, 2I/C, 3X section Comd, 3 X 2I/C and a Driver/ Stmn), and as has been said before, courses are long enough to teach AND PRACTICE drills and skills. Slamming people through the mill at St Jean, or anywhere else for that matter, will never produce a quality soldier. Take the time and effort to do it right in the beginning, and everything else will follow.
 
Amajoor: While I'm not certain of the causes, the concern over the quality of the product coming out of the CF Recruit Training Centre has been present for at least 20 years. I know many fine PPCLI officers and NCOs who have been both increment and cadre at the PPCLI BSL/WATC and I have heard over and over again how inadequate the product was coming out of Cornwallis (and later St Jean). When we ran the experimental "direct entry" platoons back about 12-15 years ago (from the street right into Depot) the feeling was that the product was much better, as they were taught to be soldiers from the minute they got their hair cut. I am alarmed to hear of 20 man sections-the quality of instruction must suffer under these circumstances.

Cheers.
 
I completed IAP/BOTP this past April. For those colleagues that know me, they know I am not one for being shy as to what I believe is absolutely absurd in St. Jean.

1. I was on a a Basic Officer course, and never once came in contact with an officer. Our DS were a WO/PO, Sergeant, and 2 MCpls. We were constantly instructed to "act like officers" without ever shown what the expectation was. We walked away from BOTP with "know what not to do" attitude. This is not a good example for new officers.

2. Standards at the school are non existant. The POs are myths. We had bags of hammers fail rifle, drill, PT, CPC, and pass the course without a PRB. Everyone knows these folks were pushed through Grizzly and Leopard because a) they represented trades that we need (ie SIGS), or b) they "reflected" a demographic that needs to be better represented in the CF. This had a demoralizing effect within the serial.

3. We were instructed not to wear our extreme cold weather gloves because we were not in the Arctic. Instead we had to use the old black leather gloves and wool inner liners in minus 37 weather. One Cadet received frost bite on eight of his fingers. There was fear he would need amputation.

4. The clerks in St. Jean are examples of ineptitude. We were briefed by a Cpl on our pay and insurance who didn't speak English. She began her brief by saying "I don't speak English, don't have any questions...."

It is about numbers. Pushing numbers through the system. I had (and still do have) this idea that being an officer in the CF was important. However, after seeing what St. Jean pushed through I question the minimum standard the CF believes can be officers.

St. Jean is a bubble. An anomaly within the CF. A training base separated from the rest of the CF, and from reality- devoid of leadership and generally staffed by people for once reason or another were "sent" there. There are some very good people in St. Jean, unfortunately they are the exception, and definitely not the rule.

Everyone knows St. Jean is in desperate need of an overhaul- the staff, the recruits/cadets, general members within the CF, but it continues on its merry way producing numbers for the next stage of training to deal with.

My 2 cents.
 
St. Jean is a bubble. An anomaly within the CF. A training base separated from the rest of the CF, and from reality- devoid of leadership and generally staffed by people for once reason or another were "sent" there. There are some very good people in St. Jean, unfortunately they are the exception, and definitely not the rule.

"Everybody's school" is really "nobody's school". Products of the "CF" training system are IMHO good in spite of the system, not because of it.The Army has never made a secret of the fact that we are not happy with what the purple system spits out, but when we ty to change things to suit operational needs we often get slapped by the turf-defenders.  A few years ago I represented LFCA at a LFDTS conference to make changes to the way we trained Res Inf soldiers. We got into the fact that the recruit course at the time (BMQ?) was of no use to the Army especially in the Reserve. We proposed some changes to make the training meet the needs of hte operators, but were loudly and publicly slapped down because of the sacrosanct nature of the "CF green: recruit course that the Army could not change.

I suspect the Navy may not be too pleased either, since service on a warship places heavy operational/environmental demands on all members of a ship's company.   The Air Force has been quite happy up to now, IMHO, but if our new CDS "operationalizes" the Air Force with more of an emphasis on an expeditionary capability to sp joint ops, they may begin to find that it is failing them too. The whole CF purple training system is based on an outdated 1960's way of viewing the military through "efficiency expert" eyes, and it works from the false assumption that you can combine the basic training needs of three diverse operational environments and somehow avoid slipping to the lowest common denominator. As I have said before, the foolish attempt by some defenders of Unification and purple-ism to equate the'tri-service" training system to the US Marines is utter nonsense-the results speak for themselves, and that premise indicates that its defenders know little or nothing about the Marines.

Cheers.

[fixed your quote boxes - I.]
 
I'd rather see us train a reduced number but with a higher standard.  Our biggest crunch is instructors.  Army courses tend to have Sect Comds and Sect 2ICs (both fully qualified instructors) with an "instructor/student" ratio of around 1:5. The result is a high level of instruction and a high standard at graduation.

I'd much rather see the Army have control of its recruits from day one.  You could either have an Army Recruit Course (basically go to SQ level) and then have seperate schools or have a "Basic" course for each Army MOC that has a core Army curriculum.

For officers, do the DEO candidates still stay in St Jean for their second language training?

2B
 
2Bravo said:
For officers, do the DEO candidates still stay in St Jean for their second language training?

Yes, and I am the only exception. I will be continuing SLT in Shearwater while I wait for PFT. I sought a compassionate transfer as a result of the birth of my second child while I was on BOTP. I presented that three months of IAP/BOTP followed by an attached posting to St.Jean for nine months, followed by a six plus month attached posting wait for PFT, followed by a three month PFT posting (total of 21 months attached postings and separation from family) was counter productive to my family's QOL.

My heart goes out to all my mates still "suffering" on the 4th, 11th and 12th floors of the Mega- where the rooms have carpeting, but not air conditioning. ;) How many resources are used to get B-A-B. It is startiling. - But that is another thread.

There is nothing nicer than seeing the Mega in your rear view mirror.
 
Now, I've made my opinions on our training system clear many times on these threads, but in the interest of conversation, I've cut-and-pasted my thoughts from a previous discussion as they pertain here.  I know some, who have intimate knowledge of CFLRS, debate the validity or reality of some of my proposals, but I'm thowing them up again for the sake of debate (again  ;)).

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a full supporter of Unification and Jointness.  However, I believe that Unification is a top-down process, not a bottom-up one.  Hellyer unified the CF because he was frustrated with the inability of the services to give him cohesive advice on National Defence and with the duplication and triplication of certain services.  I believe Hellyer was wrong because he attacked Service-based organizations related to specific identity and culture of each Service in an effort to achieve his required unified Defence team - this was simply not needed (IMHO).

Basic Training is one of these institutions I believe would be better off separated.  This means that their is no "Purple" trades - we can have "Purple" Schools to teach Army, Navy, and Air Force trades, but career patterns and service identity are locked into the Army, etc.  Basic Training is an institution that takes civilians and transforms them into soldiers (or sailors, or airmen).  It is different then "Skills Training" as the main effort is not to teach the soldier skills (any idiot can learn to march... well, almost any idiot) but to inculcate them into the institution of the Service they will belong to.

This is why I've consistently argued (as above) for something similar to USMC Basic or RM Commando Course - it takes basic training to the next step; rather then just spitting out a untrained soldier that can do the basics, it spits out soldiers who are Riflemen first - they've been introduced to high-intensity combat training and are ready to receive their trades training (remember, they are tradesmen second).  Like the RM course, Army recruits are grounded in patrolling, raids, ambushes, convoys, air mobility, defensive, ruck-marching, 3-Block War, Urban Ops, platoon fire and movement and live fire training.  Whatever their trade is, they can be depended upon to act as a rifleman in a pinch - requiring Mechanics and Air Traffic Controllers in Italy or the crew of the HMCS Calgary to kick it up to this level is (IMHO) not a very good use of resources.

The "Purple" branch simply does not work in our modern conflict envioronment where every soldier is required to be a rifleman first (this is clearly stated in the Army Force Employment Plan).  How are we to insist that every soldier be a Rifleman first (with requisite annual training and testing) if they are fired off into a Navy or Air Force billet for a a few years?  Can we have a logisitics Sergeant who spent 15 years on a boat or at CFB Bagotville suddenly chucked into a Land Envioroment and leading a convoy from Kabul to Kandahar?  A recipe for disaster if you ask me.  In order to have an Army support system that is robust enough to handle CS/CSS duties in a modern combat environment, there needs to be specific Army cultural traits that can only be addressed thorugh dropping the "cross-pollination" (for lack of a better term) effect of a "purple" branch.

Doing this doesn't eliminate the ability of the CF to unify "Purple" schools around common skill sets - if certain equipment or techniques are utilized Forces wide (catering, medical, admin) then unify the school for the Army, Navy, and Airforce to send their recruits to (after being inducted properly in a Service-based basic training environmentI am unsure of official definitions, but I see a difference between "unified" and "joint".  Unified is a blending of Service institutions while joint is an interlocking of Service capabilities.  The U.S. is not a Unified Service, but it is farther down the Joint road then us in many respects (The same could be said about the UK and the Aussies).

Another call for support of Unified Basic Training is that all service personel need to gain the fundamentals in how do defend themselves and protect their units/ships/bases from enemy threats.  However, Force Protection does not necessitate the need for a common training curriculum.  As I mentioned above, I am in favour of the Army handling its own Basic Training in order to allow it, in a two phase process (Rifleman First, Tradesman Second), to kick "Ground Operations" training up to a higher level - a higher level that would be a waste both for the Naval/Air Force Recruit (teaching them a skill they will most likely never need) and the Army (having to dedicate extra NCO's and Officers to train them).

The Navy and the Air Force have their own specific Force Protection requirements.  This can be taught in Navy/Air Force specific courses that can tailor training to what they need.  Perimeter security, Shore Party, Small Craft Patrols (in order to prevent attacks similar to the one on the USS Cole), etc, etc.  Perhaps the Army can loan out a few NCO's to their schools as "SME - Tactics" to oversee their training.  As well, some proposals which may be valid would require specialists (either a specific MOC or an additional qualification for tradesmen) for Navy/Air Force Force Protection (RAF Regiment/USMC Security Teams) - these would either be their own unit or attached out to deployed units and bases/dockyards.

Sure, this may not be as efficient as the lowest common denominator approach we have now, but I think it will prove to be more effective in producing soldiers, sailors, and airmen ready for the specifics of their service (in Navy/Airforce case, it may be less on the general stuff and more on technical trades training).  Edward Campbell once told me that efficiency (of the kind Hellyer threw on us) doesn't always equal increased effectiveness.  This is one case where I think his observation sticks.

As I said earlier, I believe unification should be a top-down endeavour and not a bottom-up one.  We need unified regional commands to oversee joint forces to ensure a cohesive employment of National Defence assets.  It is essential to "unify" operational procedures and doctrine to ensure this (and perhaps career patterns - see my proposal on "Operational" and "Tactical" Officer MOC's), but we don't need "unified" force structures to do so.  It is important for the Lieutenant Colonel and the Commander in the Command/Staff element to be on the same page because they are both doing the same task (administering a unified defence structure).  It isn't so important for the Rifleman and Naval Electronic Technician (Acoustic) to be (and I argue that it is infact inefficient to demand that they both be), because one will fight the Land Battle and the other will fight as part of the Ship.

Forces will not be unified at the lowest levels - we do not expect Army soldiers to fill in jobs in the ships company or vice versa.  Within the Army however, the demand is there (every soldier a Rifleman first) - hence my argument above.  Sending Recruits to different recruiting programs/centers (thus de-unifying basic training) will not degrade jointness - this is a principle that is reinforced in the Force Generation/Employment process.

I would venture that senior NCO positions (MWO/CWO/both grades of CPO) would have to be semi-unified, as they can be expected to fill on as "top enlisted" NCO of a mix-force (TF RSM?).

Officers can be exposed to the top-down unification as Lts and Captains (within a military education).  As Platoon and Company Commanders, they will command Army pure (and most likely MOC pure) units.  Once they've been elevated to Major, the path to unified command should start - we do this fairly well (better then the US, or so the literature seems to point out) with a common Command and Staff College and War College (CFC).  By the time they hit General, they should almost be indistinguishable.
 
In the late 80's and early 's Cornwallis was much of the same. Weapons Cadre filled with instructors that could or should be near troops as a section commander. For Instance a Steward teaching periods of Weapon. When it was time to go on the Range, several soldiers in a platoon of 100 men were very shaky on drills and close to being dangerous. Some  platoons had a squads as big as 35-40 per squad. Drill was usually given by individual squad memebers to their squad or if space was limited combining two squads. One instructor teaching and the other assisting.
 
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