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Spec Pay and IPC

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I have recently completed QL5 and been given the big ol' Spec Pay raise. Usually this is awesome news, however this has affected my IPC. Before Spec Pay I was a Cpl 3 with a month until Cpl 4 roll-over. The kicker was I spent 5 years in the Res which granted me 330 days reg force time, which was part of my job offer. They rolled me out as a Cpl 0 in the Reg Force in Feb 2010. March 2010 I got IPC 1, and every year since I've been granted my additional IPC. So on that train of thought, Mar 2013 I would get Cpl IPC 4 granted.

However, I completed QL5 and was granted spec pay. This switch reduced my IPC to Cpl 2 with a new IPC increase date of Feb 2013 (The anniversary of my Reg Force enrolment). This will bring me back to Cpl IPC 3, Spec 1... however, instead of recieving IPC 4 in March, I have to wait another year. I was told my 330 days does not count towards my Spec Trade time in, so they are basing this on my enrolment, sans time granted.

I can't seem to find anything in the pay guide or CANFORGEN's other than a blip that IPC shouldn't be affected which is my only fighting chance right now. I was told by my clerk that this is my responsibility to find the backing paper-work in order to regain the 330 days towards my IPC. Can anyone clear this up for me? If it is what it is, I accept it... but if I really am entitled to what I've earned over time, I would really like to get it back. This is about 1100 bucks over a year that I'd lose, that I thought I was rightfully entitled to.

Thanks!
 

dapaterson

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Look to the CBIs - chapter 204.  I think it's 204.03(5) that applies in your case.  I think it's sub-para (b) that's being applied here, where it looks like they are applying only the prior service as MP (junior) and not counting the 330 days.  I don't see anything in that CBI that excludes P Res service - CBI 204.15 explicitly includes it, and defines how the credit is to be calculated.

I don't know a lot about management of Spec Pay, though, so ask around.
 

winnipegoo7

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I think we are in similar situations, unless I have misunderstood your post.

In my case I was CPL 3 standard and when I received spec pay I began receiving CPL basic spec 1. Some people have told me this was correct and others say it is wrong.

The only reference I can find is:

204.03(5) (Rate of pay – occupational career
progression) A non-commissioned member
who progresses in their occupational career
shall be paid the rate of pay established in the
senior Military Occupational Structure
Identification (MOSID) in a specialist
occupation, for the pay increment and qualifying
service for their rank pertaining to the sum of:
204.03(5)

(a) the pay increment for their rank in the
higher trade group that is nearest to, but not
less than, the rate of pay the member was
receiving on the day immediately prior to
meeting the conditions the senior MOSID;
and

(b) the qualifying service accumulated in
the member's present rank, including paid
acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same
occupation.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/doc/204.pdf

I'm not smart enough to understand what this means exactly. Does anyone have an answer.
 

Ciskman

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winnipegoo7 said:
I think we are in similar situations, unless I have misunderstood your post.

In my case I was CPL 3 standard and when I received spec pay I began receiving CPL basic spec 1. Some people have told me this was correct and others say it is wrong.

The only reference I can find is:

204.03(5) (Rate of pay – occupational career
progression) A non-commissioned member
who progresses in their occupational career
shall be paid the rate of pay established in the
senior Military Occupational Structure
Identification (MOSID) in a specialist
occupation, for the pay increment and qualifying
service for their rank pertaining to the sum of:
204.03(5)

(a) the pay increment for their rank in the
higher trade group that is nearest to, but not
less than, the rate of pay the member was
receiving on the day immediately prior to
meeting the conditions the senior MOSID;
and

(b) the qualifying service accumulated in
the member's present rank, including paid
acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same
occupation.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/doc/204.pdf

I'm not smart enough to understand what this means exactly. Does anyone have an answer.

I went through this a few years ago. Your answer is in para A. It basically means your new pay increment is adjusted to the nearest monthly amount of what you made pre-spec pay without going below it.


So in your case, according to the 2012 rates of pay, you made 4824$ per month as a Cpl 3 Standard. The nearest amount as a Cpl Spec 1 is 5374$ per month which is at the Basic increment.

A simpler way to explain the process is you do not have 3 years(increments) operating as a Spec 1 Cpl...you have 3 as a standard Cpl.

Hope this helps.
 

Occam

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HappyWithYourHacky said:
I went through this a few years ago. Your answer is in para A. It basically means your new pay increment is adjusted to the nearest monthly amount of what you made pre-spec pay without going below it.


So in your case, according to the 2012 rates of pay, you made 4824$ per month as a Cpl 3 Standard. The nearest amount as a Cpl Spec 1 is 5374$ per month which is at the Basic increment.

A simpler way to explain the process is you do not have 3 years(increments) operating as a Spec 1 Cpl...you have 3 as a standard Cpl.

Hope this helps.

That's not what it says.

You have to read CBI 204.03(5) in conjunction with the definitions for "pay increment" and "qualifying service".

It says (emphasis is mine):

(Rate of pay – occupational career progression) A non-commissioned member who progresses in their occupational career shall be paid the rate of pay established in the senior Military Occupational Structure Identification (MOSID) in a specialist occupation, for the pay increment and qualifying service for their rank pertaining to the sum of:

(a) the pay increment for their rank in the higher trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to meeting the conditions the senior MOSID; and

(b) the qualifying service accumulated in the member's present rank, including paid acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same occupation,


So, the way you've described it, the person is only getting credit for the pay increment portion, when in fact it says the sum of the pay increment plus qualifying service.

Hypothetical situation - I'm a 10 year Cpl in a Basic trade group, and I release...go back to school, get a two-year technician diploma, re-enrol, join a spec 1 trade as a semi-skilled entrant, and then do the OJT time of maybe a year to meet the occupational requirements for the new trade....

When I re-enrol, I'm a Cpl Basic IPC 4 because I have the qualifying time as a Cpl.  When I meet the requirements of QL5 in my new trade, I drop to Basic level in the Spec 1 trade group by virtue of the IPC paragraph, but you still have to sum in the qualifying time, which puts you at Cpl Spec 1 IPC 4.

Make sense? 
 

Ciskman

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Occam said:
That's not what it says.

You have to read CBI 204.03(5) in conjunction with the definitions for "pay increment" and "qualifying service".

It says (emphasis is mine):

(Rate of pay – occupational career progression) A non-commissioned member who progresses in their occupational career shall be paid the rate of pay established in the senior Military Occupational Structure Identification (MOSID) in a specialist occupation, for the pay increment and qualifying service for their rank pertaining to the sum of:

(a) the pay increment for their rank in the higher trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to meeting the conditions the senior MOSID; and

(b) the qualifying service accumulated in the member's present rank, including paid acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same occupation,


So, the way you've described it, the person is only getting credit for the pay increment portion, when in fact it says the sum of the pay increment plus qualifying service.

Hypothetical situation - I'm a 10 year Cpl in a Basic trade group, and I release...go back to school, get a two-year technician diploma, re-enrol, join a spec 1 trade as a semi-skilled entrant, and then do the OJT time of maybe a year to meet the occupational requirements for the new trade....

When I re-enrol, I'm a Cpl Basic IPC 4 because I have the qualifying time as a Cpl.  When I meet the requirements of QL5 in my new trade, I drop to Basic level in the Spec 1 trade group by virtue of the IPC paragraph, but you still have to sum in the qualifying time, which puts you at Cpl Spec 1 IPC 4.

Make sense?

Yes it does, thank you. So, just to be clear, para B explains the 'qualifying time' which would bump your hypothetical Cpl from basic level to Cpl Spec 1 IPC 4 ?

Never mind, Ive read it over and understand. This is very interesting as it is not what's happening or how it is being explained.
 

Occam

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HappyWithYourHacky said:
Never mind, Ive read it over and understand. This is very interesting as it is not what's happening or how it is being explained.

I agree, I've seen quite a few people get told "you're going back to Basic IPC in the Spec 1 pay group" when they get QL5 qualified, and it's not right.

If the person who drafted the CBI intended for that to happen, it would have been a lot simpler for them to say "Upon trade advancement to a specialist pay group, the member will revert to the Basic IPC at the same rank in the senior MOSID".  Someone went to some extra effort to indicate there was a conversion from the old pay rate to the nearest IPC rate (but not less) in the new trade, plus qualifying time.

Looking back at it, I noticed we all forgot to paste the remaining text of the CBI (note there's a comma at the end of 204.03(5)(b)):

"but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in their new trade group."

Clearly, someone intended for the possibility of members to land in some other IPC than "Basic" once they achieve all requirements for QL5 status and jump to the Spec pay groups.

 

Ciskman

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Occam said:
I agree, I've seen quite a few people get told "you're going back to Basic IPC in the Spec 1 pay group" when they get QL5 qualified, and it's not right.

If the person who drafted the CBI intended for that to happen, it would have been a lot simpler for them to say "Upon trade advancement to a specialist pay group, the member will revert to the Basic IPC at the same rank in the senior MOSID".  Someone went to some extra effort to indicate there was a conversion from the old pay rate to the nearest IPC rate (but not less) in the new trade, plus qualifying time.

Looking back at it, I noticed we all forgot to paste the remaining text of the CBI (note there's a comma at the end of 204.03(5)(b)):

"but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in their new trade group."

Clearly, someone intended for the possibility of members to land in some other IPC than "Basic" once they achieve all requirements for QL5 status and jump to the Spec pay groups.

Well thanks again for the clarification. I will be looking into this as it has been going on for years.

My apologies to winnipegoo7 for the wrong info....it sucks being wrong. I was wrong once before...1985 I believe...
 
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Occam said:
That's not what it says.

You have to read CBI 204.03(5) in conjunction with the definitions for "pay increment" and "qualifying service".

It says (emphasis is mine):

(Rate of pay – occupational career progression) A non-commissioned member who progresses in their occupational career shall be paid the rate of pay established in the senior Military Occupational Structure Identification (MOSID) in a specialist occupation, for the pay increment and qualifying service for their rank pertaining to the sum of:

(a) the pay increment for their rank in the higher trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to meeting the conditions the senior MOSID; and

(b) the qualifying service accumulated in the member's present rank, including paid acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same occupation,


So, the way you've described it, the person is only getting credit for the pay increment portion, when in fact it says the sum of the pay increment plus qualifying service.

Hypothetical situation - I'm a 10 year Cpl in a Basic trade group, and I release...go back to school, get a two-year technician diploma, re-enrol, join a spec 1 trade as a semi-skilled entrant, and then do the OJT time of maybe a year to meet the occupational requirements for the new trade....

When I re-enrol, I'm a Cpl Basic IPC 4 because I have the qualifying time as a Cpl.  When I meet the requirements of QL5 in my new trade, I drop to Basic level in the Spec 1 trade group by virtue of the IPC paragraph, but you still have to sum in the qualifying time, which puts you at Cpl Spec 1 IPC 4.

Make sense?

See that's what I thought as well... I was a month away from getting Cpl IPC 4. Technically I have 3 years as an MP, making my increase in Feb to IPC 3 technical for in trade time, however was granted time from previous trade. On enrolment into Reg MP, I was granted Cpl IPC 0, with 330 days granted in Feb 2010. Therefore in Mar 2010, Cpl 1, Mar 2011 Cpl 2, Mar 2012 Cpl 3. I completed QL5 in Dec 2012, and for mid Feb pay I received Spec Pay but only granted Cpl Spec 1, IPC 2.

Given the explanation that previous reserve time doesn't count (although if we were arguing res time / reg time I would not be trying to justify 330 days... I would be attempting to jusitfy 5 years...) The 330 days was Reg time granted, not prior res experience.

What is essentially happening is I'm having to redo an entire year of incentive pay increment because my 330 days granted reg time is not being counted as time 'in trade'. I am being granted only for the para b section of previous time at acting paid rank as MP-Jr. I would argue that point since on my PER my promotion zone is stated as Mar 2011, which would be technically only a year in time / rank and not the required 2 years. However, with my 330 days of granted time, the math adds up. I believe I'm dealing with a clerk that is playing on the safe side, as she's admitted that it was her decision to set my IPC at 2 going on 3, and not 3 going on 4.

So Occam's hypothetical situation almost applies to me, however, they are not counting any prior trade (or granted time in rank).  I'm being given the run-around 'reserve time doesn't count' although the point I'm arguing is the 330 days granted (from 5 years res service) was a part of my reg force contract. Since the answer given to me was "the granted time was only given as a Standard Cpl and not a Spec Cpl' this should also apply to all other Spec trades before receiving spec pay. I'm trying to get this cleared up now, since it not only effects me, but others in my unit that have more reg time than me, and are still going to get this answer.

Thanks for the assistance all, and apologies for the wall of text.
 
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"(b) the qualifying service accumulated in the member's present rank, including paid acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same occupation,"

So, if I'm reading this right, this para suggests my IPC should be including both my time in current rank AS WELL as time in acting junior MOSID... so that should be both my time as a Cpl, and as an MP-JR... making my IPC 3 going on 4.
 

Occam

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MPMick said:
"(b) the qualifying service accumulated in the member's present rank, including paid acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same occupation,"

So, if I'm reading this right, this para suggests my IPC should be including both my time in current rank AS WELL as time in acting junior MOSID... so that should be both my time as a Cpl, and as an MP-JR... making my IPC 3 going on 4.

Correct.

It goes back to the definition of "qualifying time" - which includes 1 for 1 Reg F time, 1 for 1 Class B or C Res time, 1/4 time for Class A Res time...and even includes time in the Royal Navy/British Army/Royal Air Force, or any other permanent forces of Her Majesty...

I could be wrong on this...but the Navy got pretty good at situations such as this and this is how it worked as a rule.  It wasn't until I was out of the Naval environment that I started seeing different interpretations.

Good luck!
 

DAA

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After further review......  Time in rank within the Jr MOS ID must also be "credited" once the trade qualification is achieved.  So in most cases, you will automatically go back to Cpl Spec 1 Basic and then your qualifying service is added on after the fact.  So if you already had 2 years as a Cpl in the standard pay group/Jr MOS ID, you should end up being paid at IPC 2.

5. NCMS IN THE RANK OF LS/CPL PRIOR TO ACHIEVING TRADE QUALIFICATION (OR MS/MCPL, PO2/SGT OR PO1/WO) AS REQUIRED FOR THE SPECIFIC OCCUPATION)
INCLUDING:

A. MBRS PROMOTED ACTING LACKING
B. MBRS PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE, AND
C. MBRS WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY OCCUPATIONAL TRANSFERRED

WILL REMAIN IN THE JUNIOR SUB-DIVISION AT STANDARD TRADE GROUP RATES OF PAY (EXCEPT FLT ENG AND NDT TECH MOCS WHICH WILL BE SPEC1 IN THE JR
SUBDIVISION) UNTIL ALL OCCUPATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION ARE SUCCESSFULLY ATTAINED. ONCE OCCUPATIONALLY QUALIFIED, THAT MBR WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE APPLICABLE SUB-DIVISION AND BE REMUNERATED ACCORDINGLY (SPEC 1 OR SPEC 2). THE RATE OF PAY SHALL BE ESTABLISHED AT THE INCENTIVE PAY CATEGORY FOR THE MBR'S RANK, PAY LEVEL AND NEW TRADE GROUP THAT IS NEAREST TO BUT NOT LESS THAN, THE RATE OF PAY THE MBR WAS RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MBR'S TRANSFER FOR THE PURPOSES OF IPC INCREASES, THE IPC ANNIVERSARY DATE SHALL BE THE ACTUAL DATE OF TRANSFER FROM THE STANDARD TRADE GROUP TO THE SPECIALIST TRADE GROUP

 

Occam

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DAA said:
After further review......  Time in rank within the Jr MOS ID must also be "credited" once the trade qualification is achieved.  So in most cases, you will automatically go back to Cpl Spec 1 Basic and then your qualifying service is added on after the fact.  So if you already had 2 years as a Cpl in the standard pay group/Jr MOS ID, you should end up being paid at IPC 2.

5. NCMS IN THE RANK OF LS/CPL PRIOR TO ACHIEVING TRADE QUALIFICATION (OR MS/MCPL, PO2/SGT OR PO1/WO) AS REQUIRED FOR THE SPECIFIC OCCUPATION)
INCLUDING:

A. MBRS PROMOTED ACTING LACKING
B. MBRS PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE, AND
C. MBRS WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY OCCUPATIONAL TRANSFERRED

WILL REMAIN IN THE JUNIOR SUB-DIVISION AT STANDARD TRADE GROUP RATES OF PAY (EXCEPT FLT ENG AND NDT TECH MOCS WHICH WILL BE SPEC1 IN THE JR
SUBDIVISION) UNTIL ALL OCCUPATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION ARE SUCCESSFULLY ATTAINED. ONCE OCCUPATIONALLY QUALIFIED, THAT MBR WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE APPLICABLE SUB-DIVISION AND BE REMUNERATED ACCORDINGLY (SPEC 1 OR SPEC 2). THE RATE OF PAY SHALL BE ESTABLISHED AT THE INCENTIVE PAY CATEGORY FOR THE MBR'S RANK, PAY LEVEL AND NEW TRADE GROUP THAT IS NEAREST TO BUT NOT LESS THAN, THE RATE OF PAY THE MBR WAS RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MBR'S TRANSFER FOR THE PURPOSES OF IPC INCREASES, THE IPC ANNIVERSARY DATE SHALL BE THE ACTUAL DATE OF TRANSFER FROM THE STANDARD TRADE GROUP TO THE SPECIALIST TRADE GROUP

I remember that message "SUBJ: SPECIALIST PAY OCCUPATIONAL IMPLEMENTATION PLAN (OSIP) FOR NCMS - ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION" coming out in Dec 2004 (which you've quoted part of), and it scared a lot of people.  Sometime between then and now, a change was made to the CBI (CBI 204.03(5) shows a revision date of 1 March 2012) to take into account qualifying service.  I'd be curious to see when that change was made.
 

Eye In The Sky

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IIRC it was a CANFORGEN; I'll have to dig.

The short version, as I remember it, is "once you get your 5s qual, your Spec IPC is calculated from the day you entered the trade/Jr MOSID". 

Example, I have a buddy who OTd from Armd to AVN.  OT was effective Summer 2010, he was Cpl, Standard IPC 4.  He just finished his 5s course in Dec 2012.  He went to Spec 1, IPC 2.  His IPC anniversary is now his OT date, so he will go up to Spec 1, IPC 3 this summer.

:2c:
 

DAA

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CANFORGEN 142/09 para 1.e. - qualifying service accumulated in the rank of Cpl in the junior MOSID in the same occupation will be carried over on transfer to the senior MOSID, effective 1 Aug 04.  I believe the change in 204.03(5) was the inclusion of "qualifying service".  Prior to the CANFORGEN being issued, everything was based solely on the "rate of pay in effect" at the time the qualification was achieved.

Clerks need to review the SOPs on the DMPAP Website when doing these calculations as it can be very confusing.
 
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So, basically my clerk was right, and although my 330 days were granted into my OT for standard pay, my specialist pay bracket is being calculated with just the time served in trade. Well, balls, but at least it's a solid answer.

I just have to see if the line from the CBI "the qualifying service accumulated in the member's present rank, including paid acting rank in the junior MOSID in the same occupation" will be taken as granted time in trade.
 

Occam

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I had to go back and read the whole thing, as I was getting a little confused.

When they granted the 330 days, that was IC (Incentive Credit), correct?  If that's the case, then all that did was establish when you would be eligible for your first IPC jump (aka "IPC anniversary date"), based on the calculations to determine your equivalent Reg Force time based on your Res service.

Using that 330 days figure to determine your first IPC anniversary date in the junior MOSID doesn't negate the fact that it's "qualifying service", which plays a part in the IC/qualifying service calculation on the transfer to the senior MOSID.  After all, it says your IPC anniversary date gets changed to the date you're transferred to the senior MOSID, so why would it be fair for you to lose the 330 day credit?
 

DAA

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Sample calculation done for simplicity sake.  Everyone will be different.

Infmn Cpl being paid at Cpl Standard IPC 4 VOTs to MP (Jr MOS ID) on 1 Jul 11.  They continue to be paid Cpl Standard IPC 4 while assigned to the MP Jr MOSID.  They complete their MP QL5A on 1 Feb 13 and are transferred to the MP Snr MOSID.  Their rate of Pay was $4,888 a month.  The rate of pay “closest to but not less than $4,888” in the Cpl Spec 1 Trade Group is $5,177 (Basic).  Qualifying service in the Jr MOSID starts on 1 Jul 11 when the VOT took effect, which would be 1 year, 240 days (give or take) in the Jr MOSID.  This is added to the initial IPC Calculation (ie Cpl Spec 1 Basic) which would bring the pay rate to  Cpl Spec 1, IPC 1, IC 240 days.  HOWEVER, due to the fact that the IPC anniversary date is being “reset” to the day the QL5A qualification is obtained, the 240 days is dropped from the equation.

Hence IPC 2 would then be granted on 1 Feb each year until topping out.
 

PMedMoe

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IIRC, that's how it worked when I got my PMed 6A qual.  My IPC date changed from the date of promotion to the Spec qualifying date.
 

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Sorry for bringing up an old topic but I am dealing with right now and I knew you guys would have the answer. Thanks everyone.
 
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