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Skydex Blast Protection

BKells

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I just bought the Skydex helmet pads in advance of my deployment in the next short while. Before I install them, I was wondering if anyone had any techincal data on the blast (not ballistic) protection provided by these pads versus the issued styrofoam/leather net. Specifically, I heard someone say that air does not channel blast energy, and thus the issued paracord suspension system is superior for blast protection. Is this in any way true?
 

Farmboy

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Please note this is for the Oregon Aero BLSS which is "foam" padding. 

As well the standard issue PASGT does not have the same extra styrofoam padding as in the CF issue helmet.

BLSS%20Chart_low%20rez.jpg



Other pads on the market can be foam and some are closed air cells.  I would go with foam for blunt trama as it absorbs energy.  For example plastic bubble wrap, squeeze it to much and it will pop, squeeze foam pads and they just compact.  Put the bubble wrap against you head and hit it, the force from your hand will be the same force felt by your head.
 

brihard

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Junius said:
I just bought the Skydex helmet pads in advance of my deployment in the next short while. Before I install them, I was wondering if anyone had any techincal data on the blast (not ballistic) protection provided by these pads versus the issued styrofoam/leather net. Specifically, I heard someone say that air does not channel blast energy, and thus the issued paracord suspension system is superior for blast protection. Is this in any way true?

You don't get to laugh at me for kit anymore.  ;D

But on a serious note, you should love the skydex kit once you get it installed. If I ever have to go back to the issued suspension I may cry.
 

McG

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Junius said:
... the issued paracord suspension system is superior for blast protection. Is this in any way true?
It is completely true.  You will have better blast protection from the issued suspension liner and less protection from a padded liner.
 

Matt_Fisher

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I'll put in a query to Skydex themselves, as they've been working quite extensively on continuous product improvement in terms of comfort and safety as it relates to blunt trauma, back face deformation, and blast wave management.
 

McG

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If you are putting the question to the company, you will want to ensure they specifically answer wrt the Canadian issued helmet.  As the Canadian & US helmets are different they will behave differently & what protects in one helmet could exaggerate injury in the other.
 

Bzzliteyr

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As much as I don't want to open the debate again.  Wouldn't something that the US military adopted (and thoroughly tested I am sure) be considered as a "safe bet"?  I understand what MCG is saying about the helmet types but isn't it safe to say that a seatbelt (though there are different types in different vehicles) is better than none at all?
 

Farmboy

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It is completely true.  You will have better blast protection from the issued suspension liner and less protection from a padded liner.

Depends on the system used.  

If you have information showing otherwise then let let us know.  Don't give me the "it's classified" line either.  I was told tests were done but no one has said anything or shown anything to prove anything either way.

As the Canadian & US helmets are different they will behave differently & what protects in one helmet could exaggerate injury in the other.

They are both the same level protection of shell and same basic shape.

Again show us results good or bad.  If the aftermarket ones were bad let us know so we can take that information back to the companies to improve on.  Otherwise all you do is make more guys aware that there are other options besides the issue stuff, which I'm thankfull for, but not if it risks their life.
 

George Wallace

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Farmboy said:
......  Don't give me the "it's classified" line either.  I was told tests were done but no one has said anything or shown anything to prove anything either way.

And "Someone who doesn't have fulltime access to the knowledge required" would know more than a person who is in the business of knowing?  Farmboy, I would say you are placing a lot on your limited knowledge.  Too much perhaps.
 

Bzzliteyr

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George Wallace said:
And a Cpl Reservist would know more than a person who is in the business of knowing?  Farmboy, I would say you are placing a lot on your limited knowledge.  Too much perhaps.

WTF does him being a Cpl reservist have to do with anything?? Go tell that to the Maj reservist I work for.. I am sure being a massage therapist (but a reservist) she must know nothing?? 

That Cpl reservist has a business that sells the equipment in question and I am darn sure he wants to find out the most information he can about products he sells or recommends to customers.  Customers who trust his judgment and his choices of equipment to sell.  And they take it to WAR, where've you been lately George?  And don't give me any warnings about personal attacks.. cause I am pretty sure you deserve one as well if I earned one!!

BTW, I am Reg force and proud of but that crap has no place in here!!




 

George Wallace

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Bzzliteyr said:
WTF does him being a Cpl reservist have to do with anything?? Go tell that to the Maj reservist I work for.. I am sure being a massage therapist (but a reservist) she must know nothing?? 

That Cpl reservist has a business that sells the equipment in question and I am darn sure he wants to find out the most information he can about products he sells or recommends to customers.  Customers who trust his judgment and his choices of equipment to sell.  And they take it to WAR, where've you been lately George?  And don't give me any warnings about personal attacks.. cause I am pretty sure you deserve one as well if I earned one!!

BTW, I am Reg force and proud of but that crap has no place in here!!

And the guy he is "Calling out" is Regular Force and in the business to know of what he talks.  So Bzz you can fill your boots with whatever you want, but a person who doesn't have the knowledge shouldn't be confronting a person who does.................and then making comments like this:

Farmboy said:
......  Don't give me the "it's classified" line either.  I was told .........

As for your current status......  ::)
 

Bzzliteyr

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I will ask once again, what does him being a Reservist have anything to do with it?  I mean, couldn't you have made the comparison without bringing that into it? You could have simply said: "Farmboy, seeing as MCG has more knowledge than you shouldn't you be putting more confidence in his answer?" He wasn't calling him out, he was stating what anyone could interpret from what MCG said. 

It is completely true.  You will have better blast protection from the issued suspension liner and less protection from a padded liner.
  He didn't offer anything to back up that statement.  It is obvious that people here are looking for the answer to the original question.  Simply saying "yes" would have been just as effective yet no one learns from it. 

"I was told....." Maybe someone in DLR told him?  Maybe it was a representative from Gallet?  Do you know who his source is?

I dunno.. I can't seem to think straight.. that Reservist comment has me steaming...

Bzz out.
 

George Wallace

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Bzzliteyr said:
I dunno.. I can't seem to think straight.. that Reservist comment has me steaming...

Then ignore it.........I'll change it to "Someone who doesn't have fulltime access to the knowledge required".
 

Farmboy

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And a Cpl Reservist would know more than a person who is in the business of knowing?

Not just a Cpl Resevist but one who has been out for 2 yrs and had no overseas tours.

Want to call me on my time in go for it, as anyone who has met me will say I'm the first to admit that I haven't done anything compared to 99.99% of the guys in the military.  

However what I have done is committed myself to finding the best gear, knowing what works, getting feed back from guys who have been there as well as spent loads of my own personal money testing the gear I sell.  Have you seen pics of the $400 armour plate and $600 vest I shot up to make sure it works?  Any idea how much of the gear myself and my buddies use on our personal time at the range?

You call me on military life all you want, but to say I don't know anything about gear is like saying Colt Canada doesn't know how to make rifles.

And the guy he is "Calling out" is Regular Force and in the business to know of what he talks.

I'm very certain MCG is very knowledgable on what he deals with.  Just like a weapons tech is very knowledgable on weapons the CF uses.  I have issues though with his bias towards issue gear (just like I have a bias to the gear I sell) and I have issues with the whole "it's bad, but we can't tell you why" line, and lack (that I know of -could be wrong) of knowledge on aftermarket equipement.

What I am asking for is proof that all aftermarket helmet suspension/padding kits are bad.  And if they are, let us know what the issues are so it can be improved upon.  I have asked about this information before and been told it's classified.

"I was told....." Maybe someone in DLR told him?

  Ding, ding , ding and the prize goes to..  ;D


I'll change it to "Someone who doesn't have fulltime access to the knowledge required".


Really?    Maybe it's just me but the innovation shown in the TV, small pack and other items seems to suggest it's someone else that doesn't have the access to the knowledge required.

* Please note, those in DLR who have gotten cranky with me before, it's not a personal attack against you as a person.


PS I'm sick of pulling punches at appease the system.  I want our guys to have the best.


 

KevinB

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I am very interested as well...

I use a TC2002 and people from MSA have told me the CF Gallet helmet is identical except for the shape.  FYI I was also told the styrofoam liner for the CF hemet was initally a shipping liner that the CF retained...

  Having seen people survice some pretty nasty blast injuries while wearing the Skydex and OA pads - I feel pretty confident with them in my helmet.  I am covered under DBA (US Defence Base Act) regardless of my protection level -- I just want the best.  From what I have had access to - that is not the CF helemt and issue liner.


I dont trust DLR as far as I could throw the building BTW - I have seen enough lies coming out of there to sink a very very large ship.
 

McG

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Farmboy said:
Don't give me the "it's classified" line either. 
I can appreciate that you find it frustrating that CF protection thresholds are not publicized for you to compare against your products.  It makes it hard for you to you’re your goods.  The good news is that the CF does extensive testing (including of commercial PPE options) and the CF knows that it is issuing superior protective equipment. 

I’m not going to argue you on issues of kit to keep soldiers warm & to make their lives easier (things like load carriage or stealth suites).  These are things that soldiers experience daily, can (for the most part) safely experiment in and express in relatively quantifiable terms.  You are then able to speak to the soldiers and directly ascertain the requirement yourself.  The same is not true of blast and ballistic protection.  You’re going to have to trust me on this.  I know I can trust my information having seen some of the test facilities, set-ups and effects; and I think that I’ve also established a fairly decent track record showing my understanding of blast & ballistic protection trumps yours. 

There was a time you doubted me on the inferiority of many commercial BEW options: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33365/post-686690.html#msg686690
But it seems you’ve since come round:
Farmboy said:
... The BEW looks pretty good for protection, which has made me go back to one of my suppliers and say "This needs to be improved" and ...
There was a time when you doubted my claim that a civilian police standard was not an adequate measure to determine military armour suitability: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/39069/post-572231.html#msg572231
But you seemed to have accepted when others corrected you: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/39069/post-572453.html#msg572453

When it comes to items of soldier preference, I have no doubt you are able to please more people with your products than the options available in the supply system.  When it comes to safety and protective equipment, I strongly doubt your ability to better protect our soldiers.  You seem to accept suggestions in manufacture glossy brochures at face value while assuming ineffectiveness of the CF equipment entirely.  Here is the dangerous thing: without the supporting facts (and despite having gotten the PPE thing wrong a few times), you continue making promises to your customers that your products will provide superior protection to issued CF PPE:
Farmboy said:
The Oregon Aero BLSS and BLU kit provide so much more protection over the leather, paracord and foam POS stuck in the helmet it's not even funny. 
I know your intentions are good, but promising things without knowing that your PPE can deliver may eventually get a soldier killed.

Infidel-6 said:
I dont trust DLR as far as I could throw the building ….
IN this case, you do not have to trust DLR.  The blast & ballistic testing of PPE is done by an organization which does not report to DLR … it is not even under the Land Staff (and it’s not Toronto either).

Infidel-6 said:
I use a TC2002 and people from MSA have told me the CF Gallet helmet is identical except for the shape.
Shape is a rather important element in the mechanism of how a given helmet will protect and so shape alone can have an impact on the suitability of a liner.

Infidel-6 said:
… I just want the best.  From what I have had access to - that is not the CF helemt and issue liner.
Maybe not the best for comfort and such related factors that are a matter of individual preference.  However you wouldn’t have had access to adequate data related to protection in order to make the definitive statement that the CF helmet and issue liner offer inferior protection to any other option.
 

Big Red

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If the CF helmet suspension offers superior protection,have the CF units that have been issued other helmets (TC2001, TC2002, etc) retrofitted them with CF style suspension?
 

Farmboy

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I can appreciate that you find it frustrating that CF protection thresholds are not publicized for you to compare against your products.

Here is the dangerous thing: without the supporting facts .....you continue making promises to your customers that your products will provide superior protection...

Yes I do find it frustrating, and to have yourself say we have to believe you, when you yourself do not provide supporting facts, makes it even harder.  You yourself have retracted many statements about the protective values of the TV.

You seem to accept suggestions in manufacture glossy brochures at face value while assuming ineffectiveness of the CF equipment entirely.

As I already stated, I don't accept manufacturers glossy brochures at face value hense the reason I destroy products I carry to see what they will take.  

There was a time you doubted me on the inferiority of many commercial BEW options: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33365/post-686690.html#msg686690
But it seems you’ve since come round:
Quote from: Farmboy on April 27, 2008, 17:11:05
... The BEW looks pretty good for protection, which has made me go back to one of my suppliers and say "This needs to be improved" and ...

Correct, you and others showed that some items are tested above NIJ (body armour) and other standards.  So I go to my suppliers and tell them to increase protection, specifically eyeware. I still have doubts about the body armour but won't discuss here.

I have never doubted the saftey of the eyewear only it's effect on most users that I have talked to, to cause migraines (myself included).  This combined with hot spots on the head from the helmet does not make for an effective soldier.  There were times I could hardly drive because of both items.

I have doubted the helmets blunt trama protectiveness, and still do.  Also are you refering to bump/blunt (tertiary) blast protection, or primary blast protection, which are two different animals.  Vehicle roll over compared to IED.

Shape only effects secondary, i.e. shrapnel unless the two different shapes provide additional coverage.  Primary (overpressure) protection isnt going to be effected for the most part by internal structure, but by the coverage of the outside, i.e. if it covers the ears, it will protect from overpressure, if not, you're eardrums will rupture


 

brihard

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I've been following this thread with come concern, as I've been very happy with my Skydex kit thus far.

MCG, can you tell us whether anything suggests that the Skydex kits are a liability in the event of a blast? Given that they've become tacitly accepted most places I've seen, I'd like to know if I'm doing myself a disfavour by using it.
 

Fusaki

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MCG, can you tell us whether anything suggests that the Skydex kits are a liability in the event of a blast? Given that they've become tacitly accepted most places I've seen, I'd like to know if I'm doing myself a disfavour by using it.

Good question.

Given that the issued suspension provides adequate protection, is there a significant difference between that and the protection provided by a skydex suspension package?
 
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