Should the US create a Foreign Legion for non-Americans?

[PJ D-Dog]

Greetings all:

I've stated this topic partly in response to many of you who have expressed interest in enlisting in the US Marines but who have met up with road blocks when dealing with the whole green card issue.

Through online and off-line discussions, many think it would be a good idea for the US to create yet another branch of service which would allow non-americans to join somewhat as a foreign legion of sorts.

The basic premis for this would be the creation of a foreign legion open to Canadian born Canadians who want to serve in the US Military.  This new force could be a sub branch of an existing service or a small branch all of its own.  Because I am biased, it would have to part of the Marine Corps.

The Marine Corps Security Forces would be an ideal battalion to house such a unit.  Here's how it would work:

1.  Immigration:  prospective recruits would have to be sponsored by the Marine Corps using the H1B visa for a maximum period of four years.  Some existing immigration laws would have to be slightly modified to accomodate this as would Title 10 US Code (the laws that govern the military).  This visa would tie the recruit to employment with the new battalion and could not just join, get out and then earn all the benefits of a green card.  This would safeguard the US government from people who want to get into the states under a false pretence.

2.  Training:  recruits would be sent to regular Marine Corps boot camp and then go onto specialized training.  This new unit would probably only be infantry tasked with special or high risk operations.  They would still be full fledged Marines.

Impact on Can/US relations:

There would probably be an impact on the relations from both countries.  Here is my take from both view points.

The Canadian view:  The Canadian government would probably view this as stealing their manpower.  It could also be viewed as an infringement on Canadian soverienty.  Opening up a sub-branch of service strictly for Canadians is undermining the CF when these same people could easily join the CF and serve at home.  The Canadian government just added a large sum of money for defense spending.

The US view:  There is a need to increase troop strength and there is a market for it just north of our border.  Since Canada and the US is so closely realted both culturally and economically (NAFTA) and that many thousands of Canadians work in the US through the free trade and other visas, would it not be logical to extend the priviledge of US military service to them?  Let Canadians help to protect its own citizens working in the US since there are so many of them.  Also, should something happen and Canada come under major attack, the US would ultimately be the one to go in and support its defense, given the relatively small size of the CF and its innability to safeguard and patrol its own borders.  Despite the recent budget increases to the CF, it will take at least a decade to rebuild a stronger, more credible force on the world stage, thus there is a need on both sides of the border but for different reasons.

The creation of such a unit with the modified laws to allow it, would benefit both countries.  When the smoke clears from the uproar (mostly on the Canadian side), everyone would see that this would be a good thing.  It would serve as a wake-up call to both the Canadian government and the Canadian people who do not view the CF as being overly important. It would have the effect of ensuring the Canadian government fund and build its military properly etc...

Your thoughts and comments please....

PJ D-Dog

 

[The_Falcon]

lets make it happen

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sounds like a great idea, if only to get rid of the ones who mope and whine about joining a "real" army.....or to shut them up!!!!

 

[Infanteer]

Considering the CF makes applicants wait months if not years for either recruitment or a CT, Canada would hemorrhage alot of good soldiers to the US.

Perhaps, as a wake up call, it would do us some good....

 

[kincanucks]

Considering the CF makes applicants wait months if not years for either recruitment or a CT, Canada would hemorrhage alot of good soldiers to the US.

Perhaps, as a wake up call, it would do us some good....

Please. And the process to join the US military takes what days or weeks? Hemorrhage a lot of good soldiers.  Please stop I am pissing myself here.  Perhaps if all those "special CF applicants" were to go to the US and clog up their recruiting system then we could concentrate on getting the "employable now" applicants in faster here.

 

[The_Falcon]

Please. And the process to join the US military takes what days or weeks? Hemorrhage a lot of good soldiers.   Please stop I am pissing myself here.   Perhaps if all those "special CF applicants" were to go to the US and clog up their recruiting system then we could concentrate on getting the "employable now" applicants in faster here.

The US process is a lot quicker than ours.  Plus they don't have their soldiers waiting months (sometimes years) in a PAT Platoon somewhere waiting for training to commence.  Many Canadian both serving and non-serving would jump at the chance to serve with the US if ony because that military actually has the support of the government  (both politically and finacially) and that of the majority of the population.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm not being facetious, Kincanucks.  If you think the CF ship is running on all screws, then I guess we disagree.

I'm not levelling the finger at anyone specifically, rather I think it is more of a systemic issue with how are personnel are managed (and viewed) by the system.

Recruiting is a problem.  It is not just the recruiters, but the training pipeline that it is plugged into.  Case in point - the CF launches Officer courses 3 times a year (only 2 for DEO's).  Guys can wait months before finding their way to St. Jean - even without a hiccup in the process.  Why is the system structured in a way that allows long wait times?   Shouldn't recruiting and basic/trades training be formed into a single pipeline that ensures that soldiers are moving through it from one end to the other?   Bottlenecks lead to attrition in guys who would otherwise make good soldiers.  

You commented on the US recruiting system - but I contacted the USMC recruiter and was told that they would have me (If I applied) processed in a week and possibly in training within a month or two.  As a real example of this, my buddy left the Reserves the same time I did and he was down in Ft. Benning within a month of walking through the doors and is now through a good portion of the Special Forces pipeline as an 18X.  Yet many wait months to get their foot into the door in Canada - not all of these cases are rejects.

Second problem would be the soldiers who are already in.  My old Platoon Commander, as a Phase Qualified Reservist who's commanded a Platoon overseas and is highly regarded, has reached almost 1 year of trying to move to the regs.  I've never heard of a CT taking less then months to be completed - this isn't anyone in particulars fault, but it is a combination of a traffic wreck in administration from the BOR to the CFRC to the Reg Force unit and back again (case in point, one fellow soldier waited a couple years before going to the Vandoos).  A few other members here (Che, Ghost778) are facing the same sorts of issues with transfers and can attest to these problems.

Retention is also an image.  I got that PDF file with all the stats showing that the big problem for the CF right now is that releases after an Basic Engagement are quite high - this is what the CF study stated in its conclusions.  Why is this?  Why is it that some recruits spend their entire basic engagement in PAT platoon and get out having never been (or spent barely any time as) a trained soldier?

Image also has a role to play.  Why do you think there are stories of Natives going down to the US and serving (honourably) in Iraq and Afghanistan because they wanted to belong to an institution that praised "warriors".  Why do you think Pat Tillman quit the NFL and joined (and died) as a US Army Ranger?   I don't see NHL players deciding to join the CF to be "Strong and Proud".  We are not doing enough to sell the image of the CF as an institution which demands dedication and service and offers in return the opportunity to be part of something greater the the sum of its parts - rather we wave around the notion of financial incentive and a good place for equal opportunity (which I addressed here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27971.0.html).

Again, I'm not saying "Recruiters/Clerks/The Army sucks!", but unless you're willing to explain to me that all these problems exist for a good reason, then I refuse to believe that there isn't a serious problem in how we manage our soldiers.  The military is a profession that only some are suited for, and if opening up "free market competition" (even more then it is now) means that we watch people who would be perfectly good Canadian Soldiers are end up in the US (or Brit, or Aussie) military (and this happens alot), then perhaps we would take these problems more seriously.

 

[The_Falcon]

Well said Infanteer

 

[Infanteer]

A final point I should have addressed (and it is inline with the original proposal of this thread) - if the US made joining the Army or the Marines very simple and uncomplicated for Canadians, I can guarantee that Canada would see a whack of VR's from both the Regular Force and the Reserves.   I know (personally) members who have found ways to do so and have taken that road - if the obstacles are removed, more will follow.   Some members of these forums have taken this route.

"Well good riddance" some may say - but I would caution against such a cavalier attitude; if we are losing good soldiers, we need to find out why.

This isn't even a completely "CF" issue - it should be one that the government should be taking seriously.   Some people join the Army because they want to be soldiers.   If they leave to go somewhere else to do so, perhaps we need to consider so important issues regarding retention.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

Excellent set of posts, Infanteer.  This was the kind of stuff I wanted to see when I started this thread.

PJ D-Dog

 

[kincanucks]

Boys.   Don't get me wrong if you want to go to the US and join their military fill your boots.   But I really don't see this grand exit of good potential CF applicants that you do because there is one big difference between the US military and ours.   People die on a regular basis and I don't think that many of the applicants that I see on a daily basis would be that interested in joining if they knew their chances of getting killed were all of sudden significantly higher.   Sure there are many problems with the CF and I have seen a myriad of them in the last twenty plus years but I would hazard a guess that life in the US military is not that rosy either.   I will agree with you on the fact that Americans certainly treat their service people a lot better and I would certainly love to see more patriotism in this country.

 

[P-Free]

Would this be open only to Canadians or to all foreigners? 'Cause I am sure many foreigners living in rough conditions around the world would jump at the chance to come to the US in return for a few years of serving Lady Liberty.

From some things I have read, the French Foreign Legion gets alot of recruits from the former Soviet bloc countries. But they also have a lot of deserters. They have it set up very much differently than this proposal though. In the French Foreign Legion, you can just turn up and join anyday. I don't suppose that would go over very well in the US nowadays if people from all over the world just turned up to serve - security threat many would say.

 

[The_Falcon]

Boys.  Don't get me wrong if you want to go to the US and join their military fill your boots.  But I really don't see this grand exit of good potential CF applicants that you do because there is one big difference between the US military and ours.  People die on a regular basis and I don't think that many of the applicants that I see on a daily basis would be that interested in joining if they knew their chances of getting killed were all of sudden significantly higher.  Sure there are many problems with the CF and I have seen a myriad of them in the last twenty plus years but I would hazard a guess that life in the US military is not that rosy either.  I will agree with you on the fact that Americans certainly treat their service people a lot better and I would certainly love to see more patriotism in this country.

So all the Canadians who went and joined the American military during the Vietnam conflict, were unaware of the fact they might die? :  Were not talking about the people who join the CF who have all these fancy thoughts of being peacekeepers, or having a cushy job, and money for school.  There are many people (myself included), who would jump at the chance to actually fight, and do the jobs we have trained to do.  We can't do that here in Canada, so why not if given the opportunity do it in the States.

 

[kincanucks]

Sure you would because that is what it is all about.  Fighting and dying.  Why the hell would anyone want to join a military unless they were fighting and dying?

 

[The_Falcon]

Did I say anything about wanting to die.   No I didn't, neither has anyone else.   Those who want to fight accept the fact they may get killed (people get killed in armed conflicts,there is no way around that fact), but that does not mean we want to die.  

"No b@$tard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb b@$tard die for his country."
General George Patton Jr

 

[P-Free]

There are many people (myself included), who would jump at the chance to actually fight, and do the jobs we have trained to do.   We can't do that here in Canada, so why not if given the opportunity do it in the States.

"They send you home in a pine overcoat with a letter to your mum saying find enclosed one son, one medal and a note to say he won."

 

[kincanucks]

(people get killed in armed conflicts,there is no way around that fact)

Wow what a revelation that is.

 

[DogOfWar]

I would certainly love to see more patriotism in this country.

Then give us something to fight for or be patriotic about. Sitting out of conflicts our allies are in doesnt help the patriotism. Having "not dying" being a reason to join the CF isnt a huge selling point for men trying to be soldiers. It doesnt instill alot of warrior spirit. Not to detract from the Men and Women on deployment of course.

PLEASE Accept the fact that they're Canadians who believe in what the US is doing. And are willing to fight and die for freedom.

 

[The_Falcon]

(people get killed in armed conflicts,there is no way around that fact)

Wow what a revelation that is.

Maybe instead of sarcastic comments you can actually say something useful.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I think Kincanucks is bang-on with his assertion that many say "Yea, I'm willing to die, etc", until the time comes than the chaff and wheat are separated. Ask the refuge board.
Call me chicken but if this were to come to fruitation you would find me in line...................at a good movie.