Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[Humphrey Bogart]

Sure, but if their job is to be completing their university degree, does that not also conflict with the requirement? May work for some degrees with lower course loads, but is pretty unrealistic for some degrees to expect to properly take on that level of effort without impacting their schooling. On the engineering degrees, you probably spend most of the first 2-3 years learning the background, and 4th year is when it all comes together and you actually do things like design projects.

Maybe if we had more people we could justify this for 'tradition', but we don't, and if the other streams are all demonstrating they can develop competent leaders than what is the point of RMC? Personally think it makes much more sense to just go ROTP route, and then embed them in units during the summer to get hands on, real experience, with proper oversight and mentoring from people in their trade.

It would also be good to review the staff college requirement for JCSP; they seem to have cut a lot of value added items out of it (like visits to NATO and similar) and just left with theoretical academics. When a lot of people already have directly related PGs through the sponsored programs, really not clear what the value is of the education. If you compare that to the US equivalent, where the performance check is actually planning and running a battalion exercise as part of the command staff, ours is a waste of time.

That's not their job

 

[McG]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/miltiary-sexual-offences-civilian-police-1.6474335

Trainwreck already starting with the civilian handovers

**started. This article describes resistance that started last year.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sure, but if their job is to be completing their university degree, does that not also conflict with the requirement? May work for some degrees with lower course loads, but is pretty unrealistic for some degrees to expect to properly take on that level of effort without impacting their schooling. On the engineering degrees, you probably spend most of the first 2-3 years learning the background, and 4th year is when it all comes together and you actually do things like design projects.

Maybe if we had more people we could justify this for 'tradition', but we don't, and if the other streams are all demonstrating they can develop competent leaders than what is the point of RMC? Personally think it makes much more sense to just go ROTP route, and then embed them in units during the summer to get hands on, real experience, with proper oversight and mentoring from people in their trade.

It would also be good to review the staff college requirement for JCSP; they seem to have cut a lot of value added items out of it (like visits to NATO and similar) and just left with theoretical academics. When a lot of people already have directly related PGs through the sponsored programs, really not clear what the value is of the education. If you compare that to the US equivalent, where the performance check is actually planning and running a battalion exercise as part of the command staff, ours is a waste of time.

Whether or not the CAF should be in degree granting business is beside the point of the ”children leading children” comment, which I was attempting to address. Besides, as others pointed out down thread, it is a myth to describe the Cadet Wing at RMC as uniformly 17-22 year olds. Maybe it once was, that is not today’s reality.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Are we in the business of creating leaders at RMC or university grads who can march?

If the answer is the latter, turn ROTP into ROTC a la the U.S. and be done with it. If the answer is the former, provide an environment where cadets are able to focus on developing and ,in most cases, maturing into people who can lead and inspire their troops to do the business.

If we aren't going to do either of those two things very well, burn it to the ground so I can invest in waterfront property on Point Frederick.

 

[Good2Golf]

Good thing there aren’t other places in the CAF where early-20s ‘children’ are instructing late-teen/early-20s ‘children’, like MCpls and Pte(U)….oh wait. ,

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Good thing there aren’t other places in the CAF where early-20s ‘children’ are instructing late-teen/early-20s ‘children’, like MCpls and Pte(U)….oh wait. ,

CIC enters the chat

 

[SeaKingTacco]

CIC enters the chat

Actually, any unit in the CAF enters the chat.

G2G raised the very good point of a 22 year old MCpl leading a section of 18 -19 year old privates.

children leading children?

 

[Brad Sallows]

The "children leading children" framing ought be buried, and anyone who advances it, ridiculed.

If identifying unsuitable people early is a worthwhile goal - as has been argued - then obviously it makes sense for those being trained to lead to practice leadership early.

 

[kratz]

Good thing there aren’t other places in the CAF where early-20s ‘children’ are instructing late-teen/early-20s ‘children’, like MCpls and Pte(U)….oh wait. ,

There is no doubt some eager members who might offer to help burn the Mega, or one of the "school of excellence" to the ground.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The "children leading children" framing ought be buried, and anyone who advances it, ridiculed.

If identifying unsuitable people early is a worthwhile goal - as has been argued - then obviously it makes sense for those being trained to lead to practice leadership early.

In my life in the CAF, I have seen 18 year olds display incredibly compassionate, thoughtful leadership qualities.

I have also seen 50 year old senior officers act like children.

And I have seen everything in between.

To write off RMC cadets as “children” is a red herring and, as Brad points out, diverts attention from where it needs to be- train people at all levels to be leaders and demand a high standard. Forget the age arguement.

 

[kratz]

The "children leading children" framing ought be buried, and anyone who advances it, ridiculed.

With the accepted definition of youth shifted to anyone younger than 30 years old, it's been a hard sell for many to not treat them all as children. /s

 

[SeaKingTacco]

With the accepted definition of youth shifted to anyone younger than 30 years old, it's been a hard sell for many to not treat them all as children. /s

We are training people for combat. If you are in the CAF, that is the reality. It does not get much more “adult” than that.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We are training people for combat. If you are in the CAF, that is the reality. It does not get much more “adult” than that.

I happened to go to RMC during a period when we were at War.

We knew it was a serious business as Cadets I served with at RMC ended up deploying right in to combat operations as soon as they graduated. Some with as little as a few months out of school.

Some of those I attended School with have made tremendous sacrifices and suffered grave injuries:

Simon Mailloux - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Education "children" get at the College is paid for in Blood.

The Arch the Cadets march through when they graduate is full of the names of those that have passed away in service of their Country.

The Stalker 22 crash is the latest addition with 4 more names to be added to the Arch.

People who talk out of their ass about people that went to RMC may as well spit on our fallen as far as I'm concerned.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Again, we can have an logical debate about the merits of RMC existing as a University, but the students are not children and we do a disservice to ourselves to treat them as such.

 

[OldSolduer]

I happened to go to RMC during a period when we were at War.

We knew it was a serious business as Cadets I served with at RMC ended up deploying right in to combat operations as soon as they graduated. Some with as little as a few months out of school.

Some of those I attended School with have made tremendous sacrifices and suffered grave injuries:

Simon Mailloux - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Education "children" get at the College is paid for in Blood.

The Arch the Cadets march through when they graduate is full of the names of those that have passed away in service of their Country.

The Stalker 22 crash is the latest addition with 4 more names to be added to the Arch.

People who talk out of their ass about people that went to RMC may as well spit on our fallen as far as I'm concerned.

Bingo. Well said.

I am no expert in RMC or any military college BUT RMC needs to transform. How that happens is going to be contentious for some.

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

Captain Jack Sparrow to become honorary Captain of the RCN. Limited time offer of Mega Pint glasses being sold to commemorate the event.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Bingo. Well said.

I am no expert in RMC or any military college BUT RMC needs to transform. How that happens is going to be contentious for some.

@Humphrey Bogart please don't misconstrue my comments on this as a disrespect of those who have attended RMC, especially those who have sacrificed in their service. They have upheld the highest traditions of service and upheld the values of Truth, Duty, Valor.

It is with that in mind that any approach to reforming RMC, especially in light of events that have transpired there in recent years, that I feel strongly that we need to ensure we create an environment that follows that lineage, while adapting to culture changes within Canadian society.

To abolish the college would be to throw the baby out with the bath water. That said, my main critique is that we either create an environment where these Cadets are both trained and held to an extremely high standard, while being given the guidance needed to improve and develop;

Or

Continuing down the road we're on and things don't improve... or worse... they get watered down to the pint we aren't generating leaders that can take our people the distance when SHTF.

In all of it, I, like you, don't want to see any half assed attemps in this.

 

[ModlrMike]

I'm all for getting these cases out of the CF justice system, if for no reason other than the appearance of impartiality. My fear is that there will be cases where the Crown elects not to proceed, and victims who might have gotten satisfaction at Court Martial, may now be left out in the cold. There will need to be some mechanism to ensure that CSD offences (alternate and accopanying charges) that do not meet the threshold for sexual assault, are still dealt with in these cases.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I'm all for getting these cases out of the CF justice system, if for no reason other than the appearance of impartiality. My fear is that there will be cases where the Crown elects not to proceed, and victims who might have gotten satisfaction at Court Martial, may now be left out in the cold. There will need to be some mechanism to ensure that CSD offences (alternate and accopanying charges) that do not meet the threshold for sexual assault, are still dealt with in these cases.

I think Arbour et al were looking for a panacea in pushing these cases out from perceived influence of the CoC. The problem is that, for as much as it's perceived interference in the military justice realm, it's actual indifference within the Civilian realm.

I think this is going cause more problems than it's going to fix. But like most things, it's going to take it failing before people go back to the drawing board.

 

[brihard]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/miltiary-sexual-offences-civilian-police-1.6474335

Trainwreck already starting with the civilian handovers

Why would civilian police services take these cases if they don’t absolutely have to? Investigating a fresh file is one thing; taking handoff of another individual’s or organization’s investigation can be much harder, and I would be leery of SA investigations coming from the MPs who are basically losing authority over them for a reason. I’d be skittish about taking on an existing investigation that may have been done poorly- which you won’t even be able to assess from the outside looking in. “No, sorry, you took the file, it’s your problem” is an obvious answer.

So if a military person is investigated for SA by civilian police what court does that person go before? Civilian? Could the military charge that individual as well with 129 or something else?

If charged by civilian police it’ll be in civilian court. The military justice system would need to be very careful charging someone as well for CSD offences arising out of the same set of facts. There’s risk of crossing into double jeopardy there.