Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[Halifax Tar]

We make a lot of sense

Once you realize we aren't actually meant to be a fighting force anymore and instead just an extension of the PS of Canada you see the Benny Hill logic really cement.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wouldn't say the mistake was actually corrected. The fellow is still a CWO after all. He just doesn't happen to be a CWO filling a specific billet.

Fire him, and demote whoever made the decision to put him in that job despite his rather obvious baggage. BGen Trudeau according to the article I guess?

Fair points mon ami.

 

[Haggis]

The way our CWO position are administered now one need not have any experience in the meat and potatoes of an organization to be its CWO.

Personally I want to be the first CPO1 RSM of 2 RCR.

At the operational level, a unit CWO still has to be "in trade" as the CWO provides trade and employment related advice to the unit CO. Above that, at the strategic and institutional level, intimate knowledge of the trade is less critical than being able to influence the institution.

 

[Haggis]

I wouldn't say the mistake was actually corrected. The fellow is still a CWO after all. He just doesn't happen to be a CWO filling a specific billet.

He's not the first or only CWO to be convicted of a service offence.

Fire him,

For what? He was tried, found guilty and punished. You want to punish him again?

and demote whoever made the decision to put him in that job despite his rather obvious baggage. BGen Trudeau according to the article I guess?

That I can support. This was a bad call, akin to a letter written by another GO.

 

[Halifax Tar]

At the operational level, a unit CWO still has to be "in trade" as the CWO provides trade and employment related advice to the unit CO. Above that, at the strategic and institutional level, intimate knowledge of the trade is less critical than being able to influence the institution.

I call BS. That's just a statement meant to protect Regimental CWO positions. The Navy and RCAF have no issue with putting anyone in the right uniform into their operational unit level CPO1 and CWO billets.

Its well established that a CWO is just an administrator now, upper management if you will.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I wouldn't say the mistake was actually corrected. The fellow is still a CWO after all. He just doesn't happen to be a CWO filling a specific billet.

Fire him, and demote whoever made the decision to put him in that job despite his rather obvious baggage. BGen Trudeau according to the article I guess?

You can't though because he was already punished for what he did. The opportunity to "fire him" was then.

One could also argue that he was punished already for this by the Court Martial and that his behaviour was deemed to have been corrected.

The entire purpose of Military Discipline is to correct behaviour to allow Members to continue to carry on serving.

It's not the members fault the CoC appointed him to that position which was totally within their control and not his.

It also must be said that legally speaking, the Chief is a lower rank (literally) than even the most Junior Officer so are we going to hold the member to a higher standard than a Junior Officer?

It's only once you start thinking about these things that you begin to realize just how much society has diverged from the Military Justice System.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It also must be said that legally speaking, the Chief is a lower rank (literally) than even the most Junior Officer so are we going to hold the member to a higher standard than a Junior Officer?

I love that point.

 

[btrudy]

He's not the first or only CWO to be convicted of a service offence.

For what? He was tried, found guilty and punished. You want to punish him again?

Look... I know that you've got enough time in that you should know that administrative measures and disciplinary measures are two different things, and the fact that action was taken in one does not in any way shape or form preclude action from being taken in the other.

I fully expect that any member who engages in sexual misconduct to also be released. Full stop. Release on the basis of an administrative review is a parallel process to any disciplinary action. He was tried, found guilty, and received a sentence at his criminal trial; he should also be fired. The sentence at the criminal trial is not a replacement for administrative action.

 

[Haggis]

It also must be said that legally speaking, the Chief is a lower rank (literally) than even the most Junior Officer so are we going to hold the member to a higher standard than a Junior Officer?

There is that, but also the experience factor which I believe places the CPO1/CWO in a higher position of trust and responsibility than the Junior Officer.

 

[ModlrMike]

He failed as a senior police officer, and he failed as a SNCO. It's time for him to salvage whatever shred of honour remains, and fall on his sword. Prior punishment notwithstanding.

 

[Haggis]

Look... I know that you've got enough time in that you should know that administrative measures and disciplinary measures are two different things, and the fact that action was taken in one does not in any way shape or form preclude action from being taken in the other.

Ask any member who has ever received an IC, RW, RoS or been placed on C&P if they didn't feel "punished". You're either in shit... or you're not.

I fully expect that any member who engages in sexual misconduct to also be released. Full stop. Release on the basis of an administrative review is a parallel process to any disciplinary action. He was tried, found guilty, and received a sentence at his criminal trial; he should also be fired. The sentence at the criminal trial is not a replacement for administrative action.

Except that the time to fire him has passed. How far back do we go to retroactivity "administratively" release transgressors? Should we also change Gen Vance's release item as he's now been found guilty of an Operation HONOUR related offence?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It also must be said that legally speaking, the Chief is a lower rank (literally) than even the most Junior Officer so are we going to hold the member to a higher standard than a Junior Officer?

It's only once you start thinking about these things that you begin to realize just how much society has diverged from the Military Justice System.

I know its off topic but it's kind of my hobby horse, you also realize how much society has diverged from the military rank structure when you think of it like that........4 years of smoking dope and bad-mouthing your country puts you in a higher rank then someone who's been busting their hump for 20 years. It's still the last bastion of complete unbridled stupidity from our Mother Countries....

 

[btrudy]

Except that the time to fire him has passed. How far back do we go to retroactivity "administratively" release transgressors?

I am not aware of any statute of limitations on the initiation of administrative measures. Feel free to point me in the right direction if such a policy exists, but I'm pretty damned sure there's literally nothing stopping him from being fired.

Should we also change Gen Vance's release item as he's now been found guilty of an Operation HONOUR related offence?

No, because I'm concerned with fixing actual problems in the CAF, not virtue signalling. Booting people out the door who no longer deserve to wear the uniform fixes a problem. Changing someone's release item after the fact does nothing.

 

[Haggis]

He failed as a senior police officer, and he failed as a SNCO. It's time for him to salvage whatever shred of honour remains, and fall on his sword. Prior punishment notwithstanding.

That's different than retroactively punting him. Career moving - career stops. As a CWO you sort of serve at the CDS's pleasure and you can be "let go" if not advantageously employable through the SAP, SRCP of CFR process.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is that, but also the experience factor which I believe places the CPO1/CWO in a higher position of trust and responsibility than the Junior Officer.

Wrong. You have no higher level of trust or responsibility over a Jr Officer as a CWO/CPO1. That commissioning scroll trumps everything.

A CPO1, or CPO2 in my case, exists to look after those Jr to me and advise those Snr to me. My level of responsibility and trust is trumped by the A/Slt or the 2Lt. What I do provide is level of professional expectation to those Snr and Jr to me.

With respect, this blurring of the line WRT roles and responsibility between the Non commissioned and the commissioned needs to be reestablished.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know its off topic but it's kind of my hobby horse, you also realize how much society has diverged from the military rank structure when you think of it like that........4 years of smoking dope and bad-mouthing your country puts you in a higher rank then someone who's been busting their hump for 20 years. It's still the last bastion of complete unbridled stupidity from our Mother Countries....

I completely agree with this statement.

 

[Takeniteasy]

He was appointed to the order Dec 2019, after his court martial.

That is saying something about the awarding of the Order then. Should be taken away period.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Except that the time to fire him has passed. How far back do we go to retroactivity "administratively" release transgressors? Should we also change Gen Vance's release item as he's now been found guilty of an Operation HONOUR related offence?

If we can we absolutely should.

 

[Haggis]

I am not aware of any statute of limitations on the initiation of administrative measures. Feel free to point me in the right direction if such a policy exists, but I'm pretty damned sure there's literally nothing stopping him from being fired.

There is none. But there is procedural fairness. Applying a new policy to an old offence violates that.

Wrong. You have no higher level of trust or responsibility over a Jr Officer as a CWO/CPO1. That commissioning scroll trumps everything.

I have both a Warrant and Commissioning Scroll. I was always held to a higher standard under the former than the latter as my level of institutional influence was greater as a CWO.

A CPO1, or CPO2 in my case, exists to look after those Jr to me and advise those Snr to me. My level of responsibility and trust is trumped by the A/Slt or the 2Lt. What I do provide is level of professional expectation to those Snr and Jr to me.

I agree and disagree with this. Different uniform thing, I guess.

With respect, this blurring of the line WRT roles and responsibility between the Non commissioned and the commissioned needs to be reestablished.

I liked the way I learned it as a junior NCO: "the officer creates the conditions and allots the time and resources for the job. The NCO gets the job done."

 

[Haggis]

He was appointed to the order Dec 2019, after his court martial.

I missed that. This should have never been allowed to happen and places the process into disrepute. If not removed, he can resign from the Order.