Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[trigger324]

And more from the Senior Service.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/claims-rear-admiral-santarpia-failed-to-hold-subordinates-accountable-sexual-misconduct-1.6392291?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not a chance in hell.

I don't think so either.

Is the juice worth the squeeze ?

Here's my thoughts (bit of a rabbit hole)

Like Weinie said no it's not going to happen. Optics wise it's terrible and the jag probably wouldn't support.

But if I goto the media tomorrow and say I'm quitting because my boss is a liar and I don't trust the system and I've seen too much bullshit etc.. I have a strong suspicion I'd face administrative or disciplinary action. That's based off a presumption that my lower rank will see me get different treatment (gender and the current climate may play into that too).
I'm certainly not going to be offered a quick release before any hammer drops and offered a civilian job.

The double standard when it comes to "rank having privileges" is, in my opinion, contributing to members releasing. In this case it's easy to support these officers but at a core level I think (or suspect) it will highlight how not all CAF members are treated equal. Not a slight against them one bit-I think the more this happens the more pressure will be on the CAF since members being assaulted isn't enough pressure.

That rabbit hole aside their story is of course another example of our continued lack of accountability and faux culture change. Which also leads to good people releasing.

 

[KevinB]

And more from the Senior Service.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/claims-rear-admiral-santarpia-failed-to-hold-subordinates-accountable-sexual-misconduct-1.6392291?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

Well I guess now we know rape is the Naval Standard for unacceptable.

I wonder what who’s cutting the release paperwork on Admiral S tomorrow…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

While I understand some people see the best option for them personally is to part with the CAF, I wonder if these And similar Officers are exactly the ones we need to stay and empower…

Nah, better to just shut your mouth and go find something else to do

Well I guess now we know rape is the Naval Standard for unacceptable.

I wonder what who’s cutting the release paperwork on Admiral S tomorrow…

Seablindness, it's a thing

 

[OldSolduer]

The CAF has too many “careerists” and too few warfighters.

 

[FJAG]

... elevating people who are capable of being effective warfighters.

You would think that being an effective warfighter is consistent with having common sense and good judgment.

But if I goto the media tomorrow and say I'm quitting because my boss is a liar and I don't trust the system and I've seen too much bullshit etc.. I have a strong suspicion I'd face administrative or disciplinary action.

That's why traditionally you pass on your thoughts at your release interview for the record and then go to the press the day after doffing your uniform.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You would think that being an effective warfighter is consistent with having common sense and good judgment.

Yes, but I suspect some of the traits needed to win and minimize casualties in war are not wholly congruent with peacetime management.

 

[ballz]

While I absolutely applaud and support these two officers, the CAF is going to launch an investigation for them speaking to the media as well as possibly violating 19.14 and 19.36, right?

I think given the all the CAF's failings it would be smarter to actually accept it's fault and take it's lashings....

While I understand some people see the best option for them personally is to part with the CAF, I wonder if these And similar Officers are exactly the ones we need to stay and empower…

No matter what you do to "empower" them, until they're a 3-star they'll always be interfered with.

Does anybody really think a Brigade Commander who wanted to put a Commanding Officer on remedial measures wouldn't be interfered with and eventually told he can't? When "x" regiment finds out it's shining star who they ordained to be their next king since they were a Lt is finally going to be held accountable, that the senior serving members of that regiment wouldn't be making calls to the Div Comd or Army Comd about said Bde Comd? They all came up in an environment where remedial measures were never used and now have it engrained in their minds that an initial counselling is a knife in the nuts that are only used if someone's committed a service offence.

They did it to the RMC Commandant over something as vanilla as holding shithead Officer-Cadets accountable for cat-calling underage cadets, what do you think they'd do if it was one of their own regimental "can-do-no-wrong" children?

"I'm saying I'm willing to go and f—ing verbally beat him up about it to get him back in f—ing line so he understand the severity and how serious this is..." says Doyle on the recording.

Ahhh yes, how many times were remedial measures not issued because someone's going to get a "talking to" instead. Nothing says "this is a serious matter, you've crossed a line" like a closed door conversation. And these same people will complain they don't have the tools available to deal with it, but they've never even tried to use them so how would they ever know.......


The CAF's leadership has been making this soup sandwich for a long time, now they get to choke it down.

 

[MJP]

Yes, but I suspect some of the traits needed to win and minimize casualties in war are not wholly congruent with peacetime management.

Not sure if I buy that. Always hated the excuse "...but they are a great field soldier or warfighter" to excuse some crappy behaviour. Bad conduct is bad conduct, the fact it is tolerated instead of culled is the problem

Some of the smartest/best warfighters I know get by just fine without saying dodgy shit or touching their people. They also tend to treat their people decently and are able to push them without going overboard either.

 

[KevinB]

Not sure if I buy that. Always hated the excuse "...but they are a great field soldier or warfighter" to excuse some crappy behaviour. Bad conduct is bad conduct, the fact it is tolerated instead of culled is the problem

Arguably years ago it was viewed as a positive. The peacetime bravado of getting drunk and tearing up a bar wasn’t viewed as dimly as it is today.

Some of the smartest/best warfighters I know get by just fine without saying dodgy shit or touching their people. They also tend to treat their people decently and are able to push them without going overboard either.

Most everyone grew up when peacetime bravado wasn’t needed anymore.

 

[McG]

Being a predator or maintaining a secret “sex room” on base are not the traits you need to fight a war. They are the traits that help you do war crimes. We don’t need that.

 

[Haggis]

I wonder what who’s cutting the release paperwork on Admiral S tomorrow…

You spelled "posting message" wrong.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This just in ...

Gen. Jonathan Vance pleads guilty to obstruction of justice, gets conditional discharge - National | Globalnews.ca

Appearing virtually before an Ottawa courtroom, Vance entered the unprecedented plea following a year that saw the Canadian Forces embroiled in what experts have called a crisis.

globalnews.ca

 

[Brad Sallows]

Always hated the excuse "...but they are a great field soldier or warfighter" to excuse some crappy behaviour.

There's "bad conduct", and then there's the wishy-washy trendy bullsh!t like "toxic masculinity" or "whiteness" which attempt to erode conventionally useful attributes.

 

[dimsum]

"whiteness" which attempt to erode conventionally useful attributes.

Please elaborate.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Look up "smithsonian whiteness pamphlet". Still not sure myself it wasn't a prank, but apparently it wasn't.

It's worth being aware of what is being pushed, in order to recognize it when it inappropriately surfaces and then to push back.

 

[brihard]

This just in ...

Gen. Jonathan Vance pleads guilty to obstruction of justice, gets conditional discharge - National | Globalnews.ca

Appearing virtually before an Ottawa courtroom, Vance entered the unprecedented plea following a year that saw the Canadian Forces embroiled in what experts have called a crisis.

globalnews.ca

Holy crap.

I guess that puts to bed the questions some had as to whether meddling in a CSD investigation could constitute a criminal offense. Vance has now pled guilty to and been convicted of obstruction.

Had he just kept his mouth shut and not interfered they probably couldn’t have touched him anyway.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Being a predator or maintaining a secret “sex room” on base are not the traits you need to fight a war. They are the traits that help you do war crimes. We don’t need that.

I don't understand how these people think that's the way to ever talk to a woman, much less a work colleague.

Holy crap.

I guess that puts to bed the questions some had as to whether meddling in a CSD investigation could constitute a criminal offense. Vance has now pled guilty to and been convicted of obstruction.

Had he just kept his mouth shut and not interfered they probably couldn’t have touched him anyway.

Stop giving them the secret sauce @brihard , we need the idiots to keep outing themselves

You'd think with the Army of lawyers the CDS has advising them, they couldn't have spent 5 minutes asking one of them a "hypothetical scenario" question?

"Hey JAG, got a question about this thing, just so we are clear this isn't about me in any way, I'm simply 'asking for a friend' "

 

[Haggis]

I don't understand how these people think that's the way to ever talk to a woman, much less a work colleague.


Stop giving them the secret sauce @brihard , we need the idiots to keep outing themselves

You'd think with the Army of lawyers the CDS has advising them, they couldn't have spent 5 minutes asking one of them a "hypothetical scenario" question?

"Hey JAG, got a question about this thing, just so we are clear this isn't about me in any way, I'm simply 'asking for a friend' "

 

[Blackadder1916]

Holy crap.

I guess that puts to bed the questions some had as to whether meddling in a CSD investigation could constitute a criminal offense. Vance has now pled guilty to and been convicted of obstruction.

Had he just kept his mouth shut and not interfered they probably couldn’t have touched him anyway.

But, what difference did it make? Everybody agrees to an outcome that really doesn't interfere with Vance's future but saves the Crown the cost of a trial or the bad press if he got away with it.

Rodney Sellar, legal counsel for Vance, told the court his client is seeking a discharge.

The Crown prosecutor, Mark Holmes, said he agreed with the request for a conditional discharge lasting 12 months.

Under the terms of the discharge, which the judge granted, Vance must complete 80 hours of community service and cannot communicate with . . .