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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

grayzone

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Seriously?
Look I know all the parties to that incident - and my COA would have been to toss Hamilton out of a Helo 'accidentally'. But no one usually agrees with my recommended COA's.
BUT MG Dawe wrote a letter - was it poorly thought out - yeah absolutely - did he realize that after the fact - absolutely. He made a mistake that was it...
admitting to a mistake alone is not good enough for CAF leadership.
admitting to the mistake and owning the responsibility to change is leadership.
 

KevinB

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admitting to a mistake alone is not good enough for CAF leadership.
admitting to the mistake and owning the responsibility to change is leadership.
No disagreement from me, I think he did in that instance though.
 

captloadie

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Just reading some of the comments above goes to show that individuals still don't get the fact that there needs to be a culture change. Phrases like save the jokes for the mess, know your audience, or be aware of mixed company. That no longer cuts it. Keep those jokes and comments out of the work place entirely.
I learned my lesson at a very early point in my career. I was walking with a group of guys from the shacks to the mess during softball regionals, I was still an Ocdt. I started telling a racist joke I thought was funny, and didn't notice that several of the guys started to peel off from the group. But the MS I was walking with hung right in there listening and never said a word. Later that evening, on of the Capt's took me aside and asked if I knew the MS and his family well. I didn't and said so. He then let me know that he was married to one of the minorities in my crass joke. I felt horrible and apologized to the individual. And that was the last time I told that type of joke in any company. But I still recount the lesson I learned when I come across it.
 

KevinB

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Just reading some of the comments above goes to show that individuals still don't get the fact that there needs to be a culture change. Phrases like save the jokes for the mess, know your audience, or be aware of mixed company. That no longer cuts it. Keep those jokes and comments out of the work place entirely.
Jokes can also help people cope when dealing with horrific incidents.
Your workplace may not have a lot of blood and bone fragment on someone's uniform - but when it does, sometimes really awful jokes can be an effective way of dealing with it at that time.
 

Navy_Pete

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Sigh... telling a racist joke to a group of white faces would still be an ignorant thing to do if the MS wasn't married to one of the minorities in said joke.

Conversely someone making a similar joke about their own background is a totally different context and doesn't have the same intent. And like KevinB said a lot of people use humour as a way to cope with terrible things, or relieve stress after surviving dangerous situations.

Sure, impact of a joke definitely matters, but so does context and intention. If your only take away there was the MS was offended because of their spouse, and that's why it was wrong, you missed the point. Some things you save for the mess because that's the audience that will understand what you are talking about, not because its some kind of free fire zone with no rules where you can say racist, misoginistic or generally awful shit with no consequences.

Culture is always changing so adaptation is a constant thing, not a 5 phase operation in SMESC format with a defined beginning/end. People are coming into the CAF with all kinds of inherent biases, points of views etc, and can shift and change as they meet new people, get exposed to new things etc, while others come in as assholes and stay that way. Zero tolerance sounds good but doesn't leave any room for genuine misunderstandings and all sorts of other typical social interactions where there was no intent to offend.
 

daftandbarmy

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captloadie

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Sigh... telling a racist joke to a group of white faces would still be an ignorant thing to do if the MS wasn't married to one of the minorities in said joke.

Conversely someone making a similar joke about their own background is a totally different context and doesn't have the same intent. And like KevinB said a lot of people use humour as a way to cope with terrible things, or relieve stress after surviving dangerous situations.

Sure, impact of a joke definitely matters, but so does context and intention. If your only take away there was the MS was offended because of their spouse, and that's why it was wrong, you missed the point. Some things you save for the mess because that's the audience that will understand what you are talking about, not because its some kind of free fire zone with no rules where you can say racist, misoginistic or generally awful shit with no consequences.

Culture is always changing so adaptation is a constant thing, not a 5 phase operation in SMESC format with a defined beginning/end. People are coming into the CAF with all kinds of inherent biases, points of views etc, and can shift and change as they meet new people, get exposed to new things etc, while others come in as assholes and stay that way. Zero tolerance sounds good but doesn't leave any room for genuine misunderstandings and all sorts of other typical social interactions where there was no intent to offend.
So, I think you are missing my point. When this happened 25 odd years ago, the culture was different and the joke I told would have been accepted and laughed at under different circumstances. What I learned from the incident at the time was jokes and comments can cause unintentional harm. I also learned you need to own up to your mistakes and make yourself a better person from those mistakes.

And perhaps I misspoke, but I see a very big difference between dark humor and sexually inappropriate/racist/hurtful humor. I guess I should have been more specific in what I meant by inappropriate.
 

Jarnhamar

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I was wondering when the police were going to publicly say no thanks.

Did the MND and Ottawa think they could just dump this on to civilian police's plates?

Police chiefs and provincial officials are challenging Defence Minister Anita Anand’s plans to have civilian law enforcement take over military sexual assault investigations, in some cases raising questions about who will fund the work.

While the military and its police force are funded with federal dollars, civilian police forces are usually paid for by municipal or provincial governments. Politicians at all levels of government are not allowed to direct police operations. Police chiefs control what assignments their officers undertake.
 

KevinB

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In my opinion, they made this statement without doing the groundwork to have it in place.
Admittedly it’s kind of their job, seeing as how the members pay taxes and all of that…

Maybe the cities and provinces should stop whining about no more free lunch.
 

KevinB

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Again- when the government talks they keep using sexual misconduct and sexual assault interchangeably. I would be telling them to frig off too until I knew exactly what thing they were asking.
When the gov says misconduct, it usually means assault but doesn’t want it took look as bad.
 

PuckChaser

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Did the MND and Ottawa think they could just dump this on to civilian police's plates?
Interesting that they went with the money route. Every CAF member pays provincial taxes and any CAF homeowner pays municipal taxes. CAF facilities pay GILT (Grant In Lieu of Taxes, or whatever it's called now) to local governments. They've been getting a free ride from having the MPs cover all on-base/CAF member investigations for decades.
 

QV

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I was wondering when the police were going to publicly say no thanks.

Did the MND and Ottawa think they could just dump this on to civilian police's plates?
Again- when the government talks they keep using sexual misconduct and sexual assault interchangeably. I would be telling them to frig off too until I knew exactly what thing they were asking.
Yawn… only just about everyone at the coalface saw this coming.
 
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