Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[trigger324]

is that you want- a society where anyone can make an accusation and that equals a conviction?

Of course not. But I think you’d want to believe a victim of a sexual assault and not describe their own experience as a flimsy argument to free a guilty man just because maybe an i wasn’t dotted or a t wasn’t crossed.

Take for example that cabbie in Halifax a couple years back. He got off on a technicality in his first trial. Thankfully that went to a second. Everyone knew he was guilty even after that first discharge.

 

[OldSolduer]

Seen, and in that 400 years many a guilty man has walked free, I’m sure you will agree.

Yes and many innocent people have been wrongly incarcerated due to an abuse of process. What’s your solution? That we should abandon this system?

It’s not perfect but it’s better than Trial by Ordeal or an Inquisition.

 

[trigger324]

Yes and many innocent people have been wrongly incarcerated due to an abuse of process. What’s your solution? That we should abandon this system?

It’s not perfect but it’s better than Trial by Ordeal or an Inquisition.

#ibelieveher

 

[Furniture]

#ibelieveher

That's not a process, and how would you feel if you were falsely accused?

Would you #believeher when she says you're a predator with only her word?

 

[trigger324]

That's not a process, and how would you feel if you were falsely accused?

Would you #believeher when she says you're a predator with only her word?

Or,

Your wife/mother/sister/daughter is raped. Maybe by a predator. You know those women in your life and know they wouldn’t lie, but it just couldn’t be proven. Would you #believeher?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

#ibelieveher

Believing somebody (and being empathetic) is not the same thing as being able to prove something in a court of law.

 

[Furniture]

Or,

Your wife/mother/sister/daughter is raped. Maybe by a predator. You know those women in your life and know they wouldn’t lie, but it just couldn’t be proven. Would you #believeher?

I'd believe her, and I'd be angry about the trial outcome, but at the same time I wouldn't want to tear down a fundamental foundation of western society.

It might be emotionally satisfying to see a "bad" person go down, but what happens when you're the accused?

This is a list of people in America falsely found guilty under the current system, under a "prove your innocence" system how many more would we add to the list?

List of wrongful convictions in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I'd believe her, and I'd be angry about the trial outcome, but at the same time I wouldn't want to tear down a fundamental foundation of western society.

It might be emotionally satisfying to see a "bad" person go down, but what happens when you're the accused?

This is a list of people in America falsely found guilty under the current system, under a "prove your innocence" system how many more would we add to the list?

List of wrongful convictions in the United States - Wikipedia

Lets not forget the Canadian List.

David Millgaard tops it, but there are hundreds of others…

 

[OldSolduer]

#ibelieveher

You simply cannot just believe someone, it must be proven in a court of law. Before a judge alone or a judge with a jury.

Your simple hashtag solution is crass and and shows a lack of critical thought.

 

[trigger324]

I'd believe her, and I'd be angry about the trial outcome, but at the same time I wouldn't want to tear down a fundamental foundation of western society.

It might be emotionally satisfying to see a "bad" person go down, but what happens when you're the accused?

This is a list of people in America falsely found guilty under the current system, under a "prove your innocence" system how many more would we add to the list?

List of wrongful convictions in the United States - Wikipedia

I’m pretty sure we’re on the same page here, we just haven’t come to a consensus with our wording.

I guess for me, where there’s smoke, there’s fire within the news headlines and especially regarding this thread. Myself, I will continue to give the many complainants the benefit of the doubt, and at the same time believing them, have faith that the due process THAT ALL OF US WANT is carried out in their favour.

 

[Furniture]

I’m pretty sure we’re on the same page here, we just haven’t come to a consensus with our wording.

I guess for me, where there’s smoke, there’s fire within the news headlines and especially regarding this thread. Myself, I will continue to give the many complainants the benefit of the doubt, and at the same time believing them, have faith that the due process THAT ALL OF US WANT is carried out in their favour.

Personally, I tend to believe the accuser, as you said, where there is smoke there is fire.

I also personally understand the system can't work that way, and as someone who was "smoke" under a toxic boss, I have lived the military consequences of it. I'm glad the consequences were just military, and not criminal... As a Pte/Cpl it was easy to recover from a toxic boss.

We have a very low rate of false accusations because both accused, and accuser know they will have their day in court. If we weaken the protection for the accused, we open the door for false accusation.

I want the CAF to be better, I just worry that even the appearance of a "witch hunt" will make things worse. Think back to the times when people joked that harassment training was to teach people what they could get away with...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You missed my point. It’s sad that a victim just can’t be believed and an alleged perpetrator can walk on a technicality more often than not

I agree with you, now that scientists have proven that people do not lie or fabricate stories…

https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/jussie-smollett-verdict-1.6280247?fbclid=IwAR1TtF0fBUZWo1uZ98wTt9RYZcQiybW0XXAuepXVKl5Amwtgd61sCOONvfk

 

[Eye In The Sky]

.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Think back to the times when people joked that harassment training was to teach people what they could get away with...

No need to think back, present day "leaders" proudly view the harassment advisor course in this way.

 

[KevinB]

Or,

Your wife/mother/sister/daughter is raped. Maybe by a predator. You know those women in your life and know they wouldn’t lie, but it just couldn’t be proven. Would you #believeher?

I'd use my chipper/shreddeer - but that is just me.

However, sometimes where there is smoke, there isn't fire - but a smoke grenade.
A few years ago a good friend of mine was accused of sexually assaulting his ex, he was charged and eventually the crown dropped the charges.
Because they got both of their text histories - and her story fell apart. He got racked through the coals at work during the process and his security clearance was suspended -- now despite him being cleared - the crown declined to press charges against her for criminal mischief, perjury or anything else.

 

[Haggis]

I'd use my chipper/shreddeer - but that is just me.

However, sometimes where there is smoke, there isn't fire - but a smoke grenade.
A few years ago a good friend of mine was accused of sexually assaulting his ex, he was charged and eventually the crown dropped the charges.
Because they got both of their text histories - and her story fell apart. He got racked through the coals at work during the process and his security clearance was suspended -- now despite him being cleared - the crown declined to press charges against her for criminal mischief, perjury or anything else.

I have posted this story before as a recent example of how the CAF got it very wrong and still hasn't made amends.

Very often, the accuser walks away unscathed. Also, the press is slow to print corrections/retractions to stories that are no longer in the news cycle despite their ongoing damages to reputations.

 

[dimsum]

Myself, I will continue to give the many complainants the benefit of the doubt, and at the same time believing them, have faith that the due process THAT ALL OF US WANT is carried out in their favour.

You can believe a party, while still making sure that things are as they seem.

As an old supervisor told me: "Trust, but verify".

 

[KevinB]

I’m pretty sure we’re on the same page here, we just haven’t come to a consensus with our wording.

I guess for me, where there’s smoke, there’s fire within the news headlines and especially regarding this thread. Myself, I will continue to give the many complainants the benefit of the doubt, and at the same time believing them, have faith that the due process THAT ALL OF US WANT is carried out in their favour.

You can believe a party, while still making sure that things are as they seem.

As an old supervisor told me: "Trust, but verify".

Agreed.

One of the big issues in some of the recent claims is the time that has taken for the accusers to come forward. Now I in no way mean for that to be taken as a negative to them, for years the culture was not very helpful towards those who had been sexually assaulted.
But longer time frames between incident and reporting means that it is tougher on the investigators.
1) DNA or other physical evidence will be long gone.
2) Witnesses may not have clear recollection
3) It becomes more of a He said, She said, and those aren't ideal for anyone.

 

[trigger324]

Agreed.

One of the big issues in some of the recent claims is the time that has taken for the accusers to come forward. Now I in no way mean for that to be taken as a negative to them, for years the culture was not very helpful towards those who had been sexually assaulted.
But longer time frames between incident and reporting means that it is tougher on the investigators.
1) DNA or other physical evidence will be long gone.
2) Witnesses may not have clear recollection
3) It becomes more of a He said, She said, and those aren't ideal for anyone.

Those points may be exactly what the many alleged offenders are hoping for, and their lawyers and other representatives are basing cases on.

 

[YZT580]

Agreed.

One of the big issues in some of the recent claims is the time that has taken for the accusers to come forward. Now I in no way mean for that to be taken as a negative to them, for years the culture was not very helpful towards those who had been sexually assaulted.
But longer time frames between incident and reporting means that it is tougher on the investigators.
1) DNA or other physical evidence will be long gone.
2) Witnesses may not have clear recollection
3) It becomes more of a He said, She said, and those aren't ideal for anyone.

one reason why some crimes have a statute of limitations. There are a number of names registered with the sexual assault pages that are there as a direct result of a marriage breakdown and subsequent attempt at revenge. It is extremely difficult to have your name totally expunged from that list and that list includes people who never went to trial because of a lack of evidence or proof that the other party was lying. We did away with capital punishment partially because of the risk that an innocent person could be executed. Going with automatic guilt because she said it happened is far more likely to incarcerate innocent people and whether they are dead or not, it totally destroys their life. Just consider the number of senior officers who have been terminated as a result of 30 year old stories that may or may not be true and that in many cases simply reflect what in many cases was a 'norm' back then (good that it isn't now but you can't judge yesterday by today's standards) Heck, stealing a loaf of bread is one reason that people were sent to Australia.