Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[OldSolduer]

CIVPOL won’t touch sexual harassment issues, or most of what CAF calls “HISB”. If it’s not a suspected criminal code offence, it’s not a matter for police. That remains an administrative matter.

What CAF could do is what a number of police services have done- harassment matters will no longer be investigated by the organization’s own members. Instead, allegations go to an independent firm that specializes in such things, they investigate, write a report, and give their findings to the contracting organization. A senior decision makes within the contracting organization makes their decision based on the findings and recommendation of the independent investigator. This eliminates chain of command influence in the investigation, and allows the complainant to more effectively challenge any divergence between the recommendation and the organization’s finding.

I think these ideas have merit. CCC violations should be investigated by civilian authorities. Now having said that, two "salty corporals" decide in the mess one night to disagree and play smash mouth. Is this a police matter or military matter - or both? I think I know.

 

[QV]

I think these ideas have merit. CCC violations should be investigated by civilian authorities. Now having said that, two "salty corporals" decide in the mess one night to disagree and play smash mouth. Is this a police matter or military matter - or both? I think I know.

A consensual fight is not a crime, but fighting is an NDA discipline matter.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

A consensual fight is not a crime, but fighting is an NDA discipline matter.

It very well can be if one "wins" too much. Ex-coworker of mine got a year house arrest for 'winning' against 4 guys on a golf course even though the first guy came at him swinging a club. We didn't call him 'cement-head' for nuddin'.......

 

[brihard]

It very well can be if one "wins" too much. Ex-coworker of mine got a year house arrest for 'winning' against 4 guys on a golf course even though the first guy came at him swinging a club. We didn't call him 'cement-head' for nuddin'.......

You can consent to fight. You cannot consent to bodily harm.

 

[brihard]

News is now breaking that crown is considering charges against VAdm Haydn Edmunson for rape thirty years ago, as previously disclosed by a complainant that has gone public.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/haydn-demundson-possible-charges-historial-1.6239129

 

[OldSolduer]

News is now breaking that crown is considering charges against VAdm Haydn Edmunson for rape thirty years ago, as previously disclosed by a complainant that has gone public.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/haydn-demundson-possible-charges-historial-1.6239129

WOW that did not take long. This should be very interesting.

One of the articles listed all the GOFOs under investigation. I did not realize it was that many.

 

[trigger324]

Sit back and enjoy the show

 

[ModlrMike]

The most positive outcome to this is that investigations and determinations should be made within a reasonable time span. Civpol are quite good at determining if something meets the threshold for charges or not.

 

[daftandbarmy]

News is now breaking that crown is considering charges against VAdm Haydn Edmunson for rape thirty years ago, as previously disclosed by a complainant that has gone public.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/haydn-demundson-possible-charges-historial-1.6239129

 

[Weinie]

But it is "she said, he said" in this case. If no physical evidence, and no corroborating witnesses, it will be very hard for prosecutors to win this case.

 

[daftandbarmy]

But it is "she said, he said" in this case. If no physical evidence, and no corroborating witnesses, it will be very hard for prosecutors to win this case.

That's a quaint shout out to due process and our (centuries old) legal system, but I think we've already discovered that it's the court of public opinion that really runs things around here these days. Sadly.

 

[kev994]

Well it is missing several major issues.
Legislation for the CCC to go after offenses committed (or alleged to be committed) outside of Canada would be one.

It’s perhaps more important to be seen to be doing something than to be actually accomplishing anything.

 

[KevinB]

But it is "she said, he said" in this case. If no physical evidence, and no corroborating witnesses, it will be very hard for prosecutors to win this case.

There is an eye witness - that popped up a few months ago...

 

[lenaitch]

I think these ideas have merit. CCC violations should be investigated by civilian authorities. Now having said that, two "salty corporals" decide in the mess one night to disagree and play smash mouth. Is this a police matter or military matter - or both? I think I know.

Perhaps 'walk before run'. Start with the sexual offences which seem to be a current sticking point.

If a victim reports directly to the civilian police, fine, but there would have to be fairly ironclad internal policy if the alleged crime is reported to the chain of command.

I know nothing about it other than popular media, but I'm wondering if the US military federal agent type of system might work. A body of federally empowered civilians - like the RCMP but not the RCMP.

 

[OldSolduer]

That's a quaint shout out to due process and our (centuries old) legal system, but I think we've already discovered that it's the court of public opinion that really runs things around here these days. Sadly.

A timely reminder. Thank you.

 

[brihard]

Perhaps 'walk before run'. Start with the sexual offences which seem to be a current sticking point.

If a victim reports directly to the civilian police, fine, but there would have to be fairly ironclad internal policy if the alleged crime is reported to the chain of command.

I know nothing about it other than popular media, but I'm wondering if the US military federal agent type of system might work. A body of federally empowered civilians - like the RCMP but not the RCMP.

DNDIS?

 

[FJAG]

Perhaps 'walk before run'. Start with the sexual offences which seem to be a current sticking point.

If a victim reports directly to the civilian police, fine, but there would have to be fairly ironclad internal policy if the alleged crime is reported to the chain of command.

I know nothing about it other than popular media, but I'm wondering if the US military federal agent type of system might work. A body of federally empowered civilians - like the RCMP but not the RCMP.

It might work but I don't think its much different from our system except in scale.

There are clearly differences even within the US as between NCIS, CID and AFOSI and their line military police and our NIS and our line military police. Also there are differences in the structure of our CSD and the US UCMJ. But essentially there is a fundamental similarity as to the investigative processes and the functioning of the military justice process.

Perhaps one of the most important differences is that unlike Canada which has removed court martial convening processes to a civilian administrator, in the US it is still retained by the Chain of Command which creates a possibility of undue command influence in both the investigative and convening processes. Our JAG and even our Provost Marshall have a considerable separation from the CoC. Our judges are fully separate (except when the CoC issues silly memorandums as to who their CO is )

I'm not a particular fan of turning investigative services over to the RCMP. About 70% of the RCMP are street cops--municipal and provincial police--which is a growth industry within the force while federal policing is declining primarily due to funding problems. I would expect that the RCMP would definitely seek funding from DND to cover any policing services it provided. The result is that while many of them are experts in quite a few categories, few would have any greater experience at the type of policing that NIS does than NIS itself.

The CAF is a small organization, about the size of a small city which would probably have a need for no more than a half dozen to a dozen detectives to look after all the more serious crimes. To complicate matters our "city" is spread across the whole country. With a small group like NIS like we have the quality of investigation is much more dependent on the quality of the individuals, their individual training and their individual experience rather than a systemic short falling. I'm not saying that one is better than the other but I expect all things being equal having an NIS investigator who has come up through the military system is better than a constable or corporal who is rotated into and out of the job every three to six years or so.

 

[Ostrozac]

To complicate matters our "city" is spread across the whole country.

Not just a country; on any given day we have thousands of military personnel spread over the world. The logistics, and cost, of sending civilian investigators around the planet has to be considered. The NIS has maintained detachments overseas and is ready to send investigators anywhere they are needed. Any follow-on civilian agency needs that same global deployability.

 

[brihard]

I'm not a particular fan of turning investigative services over to the RCMP. About 70% of the RCMP are street cops--municipal and provincial police--which is a growth industry within the force while federal policing is declining primarily due to funding problems. I would expect that the RCMP would definitely seek funding from DND to cover any policing services it provided. The result is that while many of them are experts in quite a few categories, few would have any greater experience at the type of policing that NIS does than NIS itself.

Not sure you’ve got the right read on the future of the RCMP. While there’s some growth in contract policing (municipal/provincial) simply due to population growth, that’s not the RCMP’s future. The writing is very much on the walls. Until recently the RCMP were getting paid something like $15k a year less than most other police. That’s no longer the case. While the feds still subsidize RCMP contract policing, it’s now a much smaller margin. The RCMP’s largest municipal contract in Surrey BC is turning into a municipal police service as we speak. That’s >800 Mountie jobs disappearing. Alberta and New Brunswick are both talking about or actively exploring provincial services.

Conversely, the federal mandate is only getting more and more complicated. Cyber is a major growth area (or is trying to be). Financial crimes has been inexplicably left to fester, but is now a bigger priority again. National security definitely isn’t getting any prettier. COVID has stopped Mounties from being released from provincial contract policing, but that will open up again soon.

Most criminal acts committed by CAF members can easily be absorbed by the civilian justice system and local police, be it Halifax, Victoria, or Edmonton police, OPP, Sureté du Quebec, or local RCMP detachments. For the relatively rare cases that would require overseas travel to investigate something in theatre/host nation, there are Mounties getting on planes all the time. There would simply need to be appropriate statutory authority to investigate and prosecute extraterritorial offences (the Crim Code already has such a provision for public servants in the course of their employ), and some unit(s) in the RCMP would need to assume this mandate, presumably with funding for a few more bodies.

 

[FJAG]

Not sure you’ve got the right read on the future of the RCMP. While there’s some growth in contract policing (municipal/provincial) simply due to population growth, that’s not the RCMP’s future. The writing is very much on the walls. Until recently the RCMP were getting paid something like $15k a year less than most other police. That’s no longer the case. While the feds still subsidize RCMP contract policing, it’s now a much smaller margin. The RCMP’s largest municipal contract in Surrey BC is turning into a municipal police service as we speak. That’s >800 Mountie jobs disappearing. Alberta and New Brunswick are both talking about or actively exploring provincial services.

Yeah. I was citing some recent stats, but I agree that things might very well change in the future.

Conversely, the federal mandate is only getting more and more complicated. Cyber is a major growth area (or is trying to be). Financial crimes has been inexplicably left to fester, but is now a bigger priority again. National security definitely isn’t getting any prettier. COVID has stopped Mounties from being released from provincial contract policing, but that will open up again soon.

I totally agree that there is a greater need for more fed policing. My concern is that the government has been chocking on funding and with the pay increases its going to be a matter of getting less people for more funding.

Most criminal acts committed by CAF members can easily be absorbed by the civilian justice system and local police, be it Halifax, Victoria, or Edmonton police, OPP, Sureté du Quebec, or local RCMP detachments.

That's where I think this thing will go. But remember, we're only talking a very limited number of classes of offences at this time. There's no talk of a wholesale turnover of all CSD offences

For the relatively rare cases that would require overseas travel to investigate something in theatre/host nation, there are Mounties getting on planes all the time. There would simply need to be appropriate statutory authority to investigate and prosecute extraterritorial offences (the Crim Code already has such a provision for public servants in the course of their employ), and some unit(s) in the RCMP would need to assume this mandate, presumably with funding for a few more bodies.

Same as the above. There is no talk of turning over all investigations to civilian agencies. My expectation is that NIS will survive and continue to function in all areas except sexual offences. Which does leave open the questions of sexual offences down in a foreign jurisdiction and how those will be investigated. My gut tells me we're going back to the pre 1985 legislation where there is no CSD jurisdiction for sexual offences committed in Canada but that DND will have jurisdiction to investigate and try sexual offences outside Canada.

I really can't see getting the RCMP involved. It's just too small a number of offences and the idea of having someone come in from outside just seems inefficient.