• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Takeniteasy

Sr. Member
Reaction score
26
Points
280
That article...it is correct because it sees beyond the "sexual misconduct" aspect, which is a symptom of the bigger problem. I've lived it, I had thousand of pages of documents that support it. The bigger problem is "accountability for conduct", which diminishes as one goes up in rank...it should be the other way around.

While there remains no repercussions for conduct/performance deficiencies by snr ranks in the CAF....we will never be successful at changing that particular piece of our culture.
I also believe this to be true. My experience with submitting and then grieving the actions of the leadership were very similar. My grievance was denied due to very insignificant administrative actions that were taken but the Grievance Board did not address the CoC and my COs threating to send me home if I pursued a formal complaint, the inclusion of false information in the Letter of Administrative Closure and more.

It can be extremely isolating when this happens and it resulted in me leaving the CAF in 2012. The administrative courage and precedents needed to establish positive cultures is ad hoc at best and like you said the accountability should be greater as you move up in rank. I believe the CAF and certain leaders have established a constructive dismissal and institutional gas lighting culture that gets perpetuated down the ranks.

Like you I have a few emails due to information requests and its amazing what they will put in an email thinking that it will never be seen. Imagine what has transpired verbally!
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
9,128
Points
1,160
We are hammering this stuff into our senior Cadets, stuff like Leadership is a 3 legged stool; Disciplinarian, teacher, manager. Then we work them through examples of each and how to use them simultaneously. The eating last thing really helps them see the price of being a leader. We also tell them that if they don't enjoy the responsibility, that they can surrender their rank and enjoy being just a Cadet. so far none have taken up that offer. We can already see the dividends with how they treat the young Cadets and how those young Cadets respond to their leadership. I find from watching my daughters go through the public schools, that there is pretty much zero leadership training. So it's not surprising the school system pumps out a lot of poor leaders.

I've had nothing but admiration for the leadership skills I've seen from some kids:

A 10-year-old boy who used to get in trouble for doodling in school got a job drawing on the wall of a restaurant​

5dc5e58779d7575ecf360e19


  • Joe Whale is a 10-year-old artist from Shrewsbury, England, whose clever doodles landed him a gig creating a huge mural at a local restaurant.
  • Insider spoke with Joe's dad, Greg, and the artist himself, who revealed his favorite drawing supplies: Sharpies and Paper Mate pens.
  • Greg Whale said he was "blown away" by his son's work at the restaurant: "I was sitting there in awe a little bit."
  • The family is now selling products designed by Joe, and any earnings will help fund his art education.

 

lenaitch

Sr. Member
Reaction score
951
Points
840


I agree, and I await the parade of police service leaders lining up at their respective ministers' offices seeking more funding. I would expect provinces to try and get some sort of funding or cost recovery agreement. It a population that they are not typically funded for and anything that is historic and/or involves travel can get expensive and jurisdictionally complicated.
 

QV

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
659
Points
1,010
Can't wait to see the reaction when civilian agencies or courts announce consensual work place flings gone awry are not crimes and kick those back to the military. Because a DAOD defined "adverse personal relationship" is not a thing for them, neither does the broad definition of "sexual misconduct" necessarily infer a crime was committed. Not all cases mind you, but this will be in many cases. Perhaps very few cases even get referred because there are just very few actual criminal code sex crime cases in the CAF, but still many "sexual misconduct" cases because of the broad definition which are going to be straight up NDA (disciplinary, not criminal) anyway.

All that needed to happen was for the military police investigating sex crime cases (and all criminal code/CDSA cases that occur in Canada for that matter) to send their files to civilian courts for prosecution. The military justice system is not set up for and doesn't have the support mechanisms to handle anything beyond strict military offences by CAF members.

The big mistake here was trying to rope every crime that occurred in Canada into the military justice system by misusing S.130. I suspect the CAF wanted this to reduce the optics of CAF personnel parading in front of civilian courts. The solution, as I've re-iterated time and again, is for the CAF not to treat discipline like crimes and crimes like discipline and this necessitates separating how those two things are handled and by who.

This should be interesting to follow.
 

KevinB

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
6,598
Points
1,110
All that needed to happen was for the military police investigating sex crime cases (and all criminal code/CDSA cases that occur in Canada for that matter) to send their files to civilian courts for prosecution. The military justice system is not set up for and doesn't have the support mechanisms to handle anything beyond strict military offences by CAF members.
Incompetence and CoC interference...
I'm not saying ALL MP's or NCIS Investigators are incompetent - but given what has occurred of late - there are some major issues in MP Land, and this is a must needed change.

Also note the release isn't saying the CF won't go forward with things on an Admin or NDA side - but that for Sexual Assault/Harassment issues those will go to CIVPOL
The big mistake here was trying to rope every crime that occurred in Canada into the military justice system by misusing S.130. I suspect the CAF wanted this to reduce the optics of CAF personnel parading in front of civilian courts. The solution, as I've re-iterated time and again, is for the CAF not to treat discipline like crimes and crimes like discipline and this necessitates separating how those two things are handled and by who.
Agreed
This should be interesting to follow.
Like a train wreck...
 

McG

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,394
Points
1,040
Incompetence and CoC interference...
I'm not saying ALL MP's or NCIS Investigators are incompetent - but given what has occurred of late - there are some major issues in MP Land, and this is a must needed change.
So, are we missing an opportunity to develop experience & competence if we don't attach an MP to every investigation handed to civilian police? The civilian police remain in charge but the MP can observe and support.

... maybe that MP could also lay an NDA charge if the civilian system decides not to pursue criminal charges.
 

QV

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
659
Points
1,010
Incompetence and CoC interference...
I'm not saying ALL MP's or NCIS Investigators are incompetent - but given what has occurred of late - there are some major issues in MP Land, and this is a must needed change.

Also note the release isn't saying the CF won't go forward with things on an Admin or NDA side - but that for Sexual Assault/Harassment issues those will go to CIVPOL

Agreed

Like a train wreck...

There is a little incompetence like anywhere and definitely some interference... really where this stuff tends to go off the rails is how the case is managed not necessarily how it was investigated. That includes combining disciplinary offences with actual crimes and moving that through the MJ system.

The bottom line is that if the military police investigators dealt directly with civilian prosecutors for criminal cases occurring in Canada, the military CoC (and their emotion) is taken out of it, if the case proceeds or doesn't based on crown review that decision is out of the military's hands too. The MPs used to be far more involved with civilian prosecutors, but that all changed dramatically I think in about 2011... IIRC. There were some procedural changes/directives that would make your eyes bleed for anyone with a moral compass.
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,217
Points
1,040
Are there any details wrt what is going to be encompassed in the 'sexual misconduct' being referred to outside police? That's a pretty massive brush under our policies.
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
3,254
Points
1,090
Are there any details wrt what is going to be encompassed in the 'sexual misconduct' being referred to outside police? That's a pretty massive brush under our policies.
I've read else where it's anything that the already falls under the criminal code.
 

KevinB

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
6,598
Points
1,110
So, are we missing an opportunity to develop experience & competence if we don't attach an MP to every investigation handed to civilian police? The civilian police remain in charge but the MP can observe and support.

... maybe that MP could also lay an NDA charge if the civilian system decides not to pursue criminal charges.
My belief is the MP trade is being significantly misused in the CF. Frankly in a small Army/Military, the MP trade should probably be limited to traditional old school MP duties - and the investigation side handled by the RCMP - to the point I would attach RCMP to the CF on rotations.
IF the CF wants an in-depth LE entity out of the MP's - then they need to expand it more, and have significantly higher standards - and have significantly more oversight/input from CIVPOL.
Admittedly my experience with CF MP's is dated - but I was not impressed by the majority of the trade I interacted with, there where some really good one, but a lot of duds (and worse).

There is a little incompetence like anywhere and definitely some interference...
I would disagree greatly with that - with the caveat background is based on the time frame of 1987-2004

really where this stuff tends to go off the rails is how the case is managed not necessarily how it was investigated. That includes combining disciplinary offences with actual crimes and moving that through the MJ system.
No disagreement here.
The bottom line is that if the military police investigators dealt directly with civilian prosecutors for criminal cases occurring in Canada, the military CoC (and their emotion) is taken out of it, if the case proceeds or doesn't based on crown review that decision is out of the military's hands too.
Perhaps a blended mix of MP and CIV LE then?
The MPs used to be far more involved with civilian prosecutors, but that all changed dramatically I think in about 2011... IIRC. There were some procedural changes/directives that would make your eyes bleed for anyone with a moral compass.
A lot of that stemmed from significant issues on the MP side --with the Civilian system asking for that Y2K.
Now I'm am also sure some of the changes where accepted due to parts of the CoC wanting to do some rug sweeping too.
 

QV

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
659
Points
1,010
My belief is the MP trade is being significantly misused in the CF. Frankly in a small Army/Military, the MP trade should probably be limited to traditional old school MP duties - and the investigation side handled by the RCMP - to the point I would attach RCMP to the CF on rotations.
IF the CF wants an in-depth LE entity out of the MP's - then they need to expand it more, and have significantly higher standards - and have significantly more oversight/input from CIVPOL.
Admittedly my experience with CF MP's is dated - but I was not impressed by the majority of the trade I interacted with, there where some really good one, but a lot of duds (and worse).


I would disagree greatly with that - with the caveat background is based on the time frame of 1987-2004


No disagreement here.

Perhaps a blended mix of MP and CIV LE then?

A lot of that stemmed from significant issues on the MP side --with the Civilian system asking for that Y2K.
Now I'm am also sure some of the changes where accepted due to parts of the CoC wanting to do some rug sweeping too.
I'd say your experience is dated somewhat, though many MP "clients" tend to agree with you ;) (that's a joke not implying anything). The Military Police Complaints Commission provides the civilian oversight and reports to parliament through the MND, so there is already oversight similar to what the RCMP have. Probably a contributing factor of present problems is the MP officer cadre who are more close to the CAF officer cadre ("to support operations") than their MP organization should be.

With that said... and I may hurt some feelings here...

I believe the CAF should take the word "police" entirely out of the "MP" along with any police related task. The CFMP Gp should be a FP or Force Protection unit (CFFP Gp) only specializing in:

Base Security (replace the Commissionaire entirely with an armed professional security force - actual security not the appearance we have now)
Deployed base/FOB security
Convoy Escort/Security
Close Protection
Air Marshal
Airfield security
Port Security Teams
Prisoners of war/DB
NCIU
Dog handling
National Ident program

The "CFFP Gp" would be closely linked with DGDS, it would be it's operational arm. Military discipline would handled entirely by the CoC, as it should be. Actual crimes would be handled by the police, RCMP most likely (newly formed M Division where RCMP members rotate in and out like other posts, supported by nearest detachment).

This would accomplish probably everything the CAF actually needs (with respect to FP) and everyone can stop pretending the CAF needs it's own private police service.
 

KevinB

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
6,598
Points
1,110
I'd say your experience is dated somewhat, though many MP "clients" tend to agree with you ;) (that's a joke not implying anything). The Military Police Complaints Commission provides the civilian oversight and reports to parliament through the MND, so there is already oversight similar to what the RCMP have. Probably a contributing factor of present problems is the MP officer cadre who are more close to the CAF officer cadre ("to support operations") than their MP organization should be.
Yup
With that said... and I may hurt some feelings here...

I believe the CAF should take the word "police" entirely out of the "MP" along with any police related task. The CFMP Gp should be a FP or Force Protection unit (CFFP Gp) only specializing in:

Base Security (replace the Commissionaire entirely with an armed professional security force - actual security not the appearance we have now)
Deployed base/FOB security
Convoy Escort/Security
Close Protection
Air Marshal
Airfield security
Port Security Teams
Prisoners of war/DB
NCIU
Dog handling
National Ident program

The "CFFP Gp" would be closely linked with DGDS, it would be it's operational arm. Military discipline would handled entirely by the CoC, as it should be. Actual crimes would be handled by the police, RCMP most likely (newly formed M Division where RCMP members rotate in and out like other posts, supported by nearest detachment).

This would accomplish probably everything the CAF actually needs (with respect to FP) and everyone can stop pretending the CAF needs it's own private police service.

I would strike Air Marshal from the list - but agree with you on the others wholeheartedly.
*Having friends who are US AM's and having done the Flying Armed program here - I believe in the need for a Federal LEO to fill that role, which in Canada would then fall to the RCMP to make a subset for that mission (which I think they do currently).
 

QV

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
659
Points
1,010
Yup


I would strike Air Marshal from the list - but agree with you on the others wholeheartedly.
*Having friends who are US AM's and having done the Flying Armed program here - I believe in the need for a Federal LEO to fill that role, which in Canada would then fall to the RCMP to make a subset for that mission (which I think they do currently).

IIRC the air marshals in the CAF only handle certain military operated flights for protective purposes, I'd combine this with the airfield security task.
RCMP handle commercial airlines I believe.
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,217
Points
1,040
I've read else where it's anything that the already falls under the criminal code.
So thing like groping up to rape make sense, but would that exclude things like jokes or comments someone found offensive?

I think the example of the Senior Navy pers making comments about a 'red room' in the big teams call are a good example. I don't think it was criminal, but definitely wasn't professional. I don't see this direction changing anything around how something like that is investigated, unless I missed something in the high level direction.

I'm not sure if this is progress on the obviously bad things; the military conviction rate isn't great, but how does it compare to civilian side? Similarly, how often does someone get off on a sexual harassment/assault charge but still gets dinged under a lesser 'conduct unbecoming' charge that wouldn't be available on a civilian court? The CAF is a reflection of Canadian society (good and bad) but expecting to rid it of this is pretty unrealistic. As far as I can tell though, we already have all the tools in place to deal with things if we choose to enforce the rules, so not really sure how substituing an external system with it's own problems doesnt' just add on another layer of possible failures.
 

KevinB

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
6,598
Points
1,110
IIRC the air marshals in the CAF only handle certain military operated flights for protective purposes, I'd combine this with the airfield security task.
RCMP handle commercial airlines I believe.
Okay tracking now.
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
3,870
Points
1,110
CIVPOL won’t touch sexual harassment issues, or most of what CAF calls “HISB”. If it’s not a suspected criminal code offence, it’s not a matter for police. That remains an administrative matter.

What CAF could do is what a number of police services have done- harassment matters will no longer be investigated by the organization’s own members. Instead, allegations go to an independent firm that specializes in such things, they investigate, write a report, and give their findings to the contracting organization. A senior decision makes within the contracting organization makes their decision based on the findings and recommendation of the independent investigator. This eliminates chain of command influence in the investigation, and allows the complainant to more effectively challenge any divergence between the recommendation and the organization’s finding.
 

PPCLI Guy

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
965
Points
1,040
I'd say your experience is dated somewhat, though many MP "clients" tend to agree with you ;) (that's a joke not implying anything). The Military Police Complaints Commission provides the civilian oversight and reports to parliament through the MND, so there is already oversight similar to what the RCMP have. Probably a contributing factor of present problems is the MP officer cadre who are more close to the CAF officer cadre ("to support operations") than their MP organization should be.

With that said... and I may hurt some feelings here...

I believe the CAF should take the word "police" entirely out of the "MP" along with any police related task. The CFMP Gp should be a FP or Force Protection unit (CFFP Gp) only specializing in:

Base Security (replace the Commissionaire entirely with an armed professional security force - actual security not the appearance we have now)
Deployed base/FOB security
Convoy Escort/Security
Close Protection
Air Marshal
Airfield security
Port Security Teams
Prisoners of war/DB
NCIU
Dog handling
National Ident program

The "CFFP Gp" would be closely linked with DGDS, it would be it's operational arm. Military discipline would handled entirely by the CoC, as it should be. Actual crimes would be handled by the police, RCMP most likely (newly formed M Division where RCMP members rotate in and out like other posts, supported by nearest detachment).

This would accomplish probably everything the CAF actually needs (with respect to FP) and everyone can stop pretending the CAF needs it's own private police service.
This fundamentally about the question of whether we want a police for the CAF, or a police of the CAF. The MP Gp has privileged the latter, and the former has just about disappeared.
 
Top