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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

QV

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People ordinarily try to eliminate risk. When an accusation is enough to ruin a reputation and cause hardship (eg. expenditure of time and money), people will avoid opportunities for accusations to be made. Hence, no one-on-one situations behind closed doors. There is a small fraction of people who will use rules to apply pressure to get what they want. Anyone who pays attention to office politics knows this. There is no point whinging about prudent risk mitigation.

The problem is that some guys never learn that unwanted attention from men is more accurately described as attention from unwanted men. Figuring out which side of the line you are on is the difference between courtship and harassment.
This is a big truth. It’s also important to remember that minds can change at anytime.
 

Halifax Tar

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Ive been in leadership ranks and positions for 11 of my 21 years now. I've never held a divisional interview, administered a PER or PDR or prescribed remedial measures with out witnesses or representation from higher in the CoC. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed if the recipient of what was happening wanted their own witnesses too.

It's just smart business.
 

CBH99

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The problem is that some guys never learn that unwanted attention from men is more accurately described as attention from unwanted men. Figuring out which side of the line you are on is the difference between courtship and harassment.
Extremely well said.
 

OldSolduer

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What if 3 males were gay and 1 was straight and felt uncomfortable near gay men? Would we entertain a straight male not wanting to be alone with someone who was gay?
Of course not - tongue in cheek here but we'd brand the one straight male as homophobic and send him away for re education. And that isn't far from the truth.
 

Jarnhamar

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Ive been in leadership ranks and positions for 11 of my 21 years now. I've never held a divisional interview, administered a PER or PDR or prescribed remedial measures with out witnesses or representation from higher in the CoC. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed if the recipient of what was happening wanted their own witnesses too.

It's just smart business.
You've never taken a sailor somewhere and went over their PDR/PER 1 on 1?
 

Jarnhamar

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Segregating females as much as possible on course is seen as a way to avoid issues.
For sure, I've seen that and understand.
Depending on how you look at it, it kind of kicks the can down the road. Sooner or later the private who can't keep their hands to themselves will be a MCpl. Or the OCdt becomes a major.

This is epically relevant on BMQ when we don't necessary know who it is we have coming into the CAF, not saying that that isn't something to worry about at other rank levels.
Great point.
Can you imagine if day 1 we told BMQ recruits that anyone caught doing that shit would be charged and if found guilty thrown in coveralls and flown out to the CF service prison and detention barracks in Edmonton? And when someone inadvertently does it, their peers watch MPs make the guy or girl disappear? I bet people would be more inclined to keep their hands to themselves.
 

Kilted

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Great point.
Can you imagine if day 1 we told BMQ recruits that anyone caught doing that shit would be charged and if found guilty thrown in coveralls and flown out to the CF service prison and detention barracks in Edmonton? And when someone inadvertently does it, their peers watch MPs make the guy or girl disappear? I bet people would be more inclined to keep their hands to themselves.
It would be nice if people were actually held accountable for things like that on BMQ. I saw a BMQ troop assault a staff member once, they allowed him to VR with nothing done about it.
 

Kilted

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It would be nice if people were actually held accountable for things like that on BMQ. I saw a BMQ troop assault a staff member once, they allowed him to VR with nothing done about it.
I realized as soon as I posted this that I should also say: I wish people would be held accountable at other levels as well.
 

OldSolduer

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I realized as soon as I posted this that I should also say: I wish people would be held accountable at other levels as well.
Ok as to your posts - was the assault reported? Investigated? Were any charges laid?
 

Kilted

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It was not self-defence. It also occurred on a co-op course, perhaps that may have had something to do with it.
 

Halifax Tar

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You've never taken a sailor somewhere and went over their PDR/PER 1 on 1?
Never. I've always done PER/PDR interviews with either MS and PO2 or PO2 and PO1. My PO2 had me and the chief.

Come to think of it I don't think I've ever received a PER where it was just me and another person. This may be the first year for that for me.

Honestly I thought everyone did this.
 

TCM621

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Never. I've always done PER/PDR interviews with either MS and PO2 or PO2 and PO1. My PO2 had me and the chief.

Come to think of it I don't think I've ever received a PER where it was just me and another person. This may be the first year for that for me.

Honestly I thought everyone did this.
I don't think I have ever received a PER that wasn't 1 on 1.
 

ballz

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Not to derail the current discussion, but a WO I work with proposed that the only solution they might have to Vance is to take away some of his honours and awards, and we were batting the idea back and forth. And then this came out today.... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/medals-expelled-military-merit-1.6024218

Personally I think if wearing a few participation medals without having been given them is enough to take away the OMM, what Vance is accused of definitely is...

Wondering if anyone thinks this will be considered / is being considered or what they think of the merits of the idea?
 

trigger324

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Sounds good to me. Strip him. I never was a fan. Let him live the rest of his hypocritical life in exile..
 

trigger324

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Never. I've always done PER/PDR interviews with either MS and PO2 or PO2 and PO1. My PO2 had me and the chief.

Come to think of it I don't think I've ever received a PER where it was just me and another person. This may be the first year for that for me.

Honestly I thought everyone did this.
That’s a Navy thing as far as I know. In fact one time when I was a sailor I had to specifically demand a witness(P2)out of the meeting.
 
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