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Self Propelled Artillery

Fencer_1983

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I wonder how successful the small crew size will be considering there will be a need for seperate support and maitenance personnel.  I remember reading somewhere that they had made the rearming process completely automated as well - that you just connect up the support vehichle and it throws in the shells...

Also, what sort of defenses does the NLOS-C have from ambushes and the like?  Is there going to be a mounted machine gun?
 

Franko

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Fencer_1983 said:
Also, what sort of defenses does the NLOS-C have from ambushes and the like?  Is there going to be a mounted machine gun?

Arty never moves alone, so there would be forces allocated to counter ambushes and the like.

It's defenses would be considered OPSEC.

It's not even being produced yet.

Regards
 

Fencer_1983

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Arty never moves alone, so there would be forces allocated to counter ambushes and the like.

I'm getting conflicting messages here.  One fellow tells me Arty can be in the thick of things and is often faced with defending itself in the modern theatre.  And now you're telling me other people do the defending for the Arty?  I'm lost..
 

rampage800

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Arty Tps move by themselves all the time, they are quite capable of defending themselves.

If other 'assets' are around then they may be cut to the Tp/Bty for Force Protection but is surely not the norm, especially now.

 

Fencer_1983

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Apparently the NLOS-C and the other similar vehicles will be equiped with the 'XM307 Advanced Crew Served Weapon': http://www.defense-update.com/products/x/xm307.htm

http://www.ws-wr.com/redwood_dev/content/BAE/NLOS_ipk_06/UserFiles/File/FCS_BCT_White%20Paper.pdf

 

Petard

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Recce By Death said:
Arty never moves alone, so there would be forces allocated to counter ambushes and the like.

Probably a good idea to check your facts first there Recce, I've been at this gunner stuff for awhile now, and I can say from personal experience that it has been very rare indeed to see any other units travel with an Artillery unit, and if they do, it is usually for logistic reasons.
I suspect there are some at high levels that believe what you're saying to be the case, and it does affect their decisions as to what the Artillery does or doesn't need, i.e. the Artillery doesn't need much in the way of self protection since there's always some sort of "escort" unit with them.
 

Franko

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Petard said:
Probably a good idea to check your facts first there Recce, I've been at this gunner stuff for awhile now, and I can say from personal experience that it has been very rare indeed to see any other units travel with an Artillery unit, and if they do, it is usually for logistic reasons.
I suspect there are some at high levels that believe what you're saying to be the case, and it does affect their decisions as to what the Artillery does or doesn't need, i.e. the Artillery doesn't need much in the way of self protection since there's always some sort of "escort" unit with them.

So the artillery doesn't have any protection integral to it at all? I find that hard to believe in this day and age of COIN ops.

Gun tractors and SP guns without any defense besides a C6? If that's the case I guess I'm wrong.

Regards
 

Petard

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Recce By Death said:
Gun tractors and SP guns without any defense besides a C6? If that's the case I guess I'm wrong.

Regards

Unfortunately that has been the case for some time, and this has changed (and not by much) only recently and only for deployed units.
Yours is not a new assumption though, and there are many that hold it, consequently it can be a real uphill battle trying to change the situation.
 

Fencer_1983

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I'm going to throw in my two cents here.

With current towed and SP artillery theres about 8 gunners per howitzer depending on the gun system.  That's 8 soldiers that can defend themselves as infantry if needbe, right?

With the FCS NLOS-C , theres a crew of 2 - driver and operator.  The resupply vehichle has a crew of 2 as well I think. Even combined, that's half as much manpower.

I think the question that is being asked now is will the new NLOS system with its new technology but smaller crew be able to defend itself and act autonomously to the same extent as a current battery?  From what I've read it seems that they're already worried about maintenance and the fact that the NLOS-C crew won't be able to mantain and repair the gun by themselves.

If the NLOS system needs constant escorts, or breaks down constantly in the field, the advantage of the reduced crew size may end up being nill.
 

Petard

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Fencer, maybe we can get you to attend the next FIFC study group ;D

This article is not particularly new, but note that there is no mention of addressing this point of self protection for artillery other than a "shoot and scoot" capability. Considering the events that have happened since then you would think the point recce by death was trying to make about the dangers of operating in COIN environments would cause at least some change in the requirements, and yet I haven't heard of any (official) major changes in what the article says WRT self protection for indirect fire capabilities. To be fair the process is still on going and who knows what might come out in the "rinse cycle".
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=648
 

tomahawk6

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It was standard practice when deploying a towed howitzer battery that an infantry company was assigned as security. The old fire base concept from Vitenam.SP guns on the other hand must rely on the shoot and scoot practice to avoid detection/counter-battery fire. In DS and OIF the artillery was pretty far forward if my recollection is correct and we didnt have Iraqi commando's to be concerned with.
 
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