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Seeking an excuse to spend Defence $$ on a Bombardier plane

Humphrey Bogart

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dapaterson

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Humphrey Bogart said:
Bombardier is dead, just kill the thing already!

It's being delisted from the S&P/TSX Composite Index this week:

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/bombardier-dropped-p-tsx-composite-185826151.html

Bombardier has been technically bankrupt for years but has been kept alive by Government Welfare.

What is it with Quebec Companies and just Generally Incompetent management?

Removed from the index =/= delisted.  Removed from the index means it's no longer a large enough company to be considered in the index.  Delisted would mean they were being kicked off the stock exchange.

And if we want to talk about companies that would be bankrupt without large dollops of federal cash, there's always ISI...
 

Eye In The Sky

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QuietSpike2020 said:
Royal Canadian Air Force to buy two Challenger 650s from Bombardier

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/royal-canadian-air-force-to-buy-two-challenger-650s-from-bombardier/138733.article

This lines up nicely with the same mentality in the RCAF that saw new DEU ranks come into service, while operational uniforms (flying suits) were 'unavailable'. 

Hmmm...is it only the Challengers that are being impacted by these new flying rules in Europe and the US??  :pop:
 

Humphrey Bogart

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dapaterson said:
Removed from the index =/= delisted.  Removed from the index means it's no longer a large enough company to be considered in the index.  Delisted would mean they were being kicked off the stock exchange.

And if we want to talk about companies that would be bankrupt without large dollops of federal cash, there's always ISI...

Thanks for the correction DP,  the term you used is what I meant  8).

ISI would be just fine, ISI exists to support the broader Irving Group of families.  It's a vertically integrated company and it makes money.  Irving is an interesting case, they have chosen to remain private and take the big fish in a small pond route.

Some interesting moves from Irving Oil lately though.  They now own a refinery in Ireland and bought the Oil Refinrry in Newfoundland with plan to move WCS through the Panama Canal.

Quebec is not a friendly Province for business or entrepreneurs.
 
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What about the Raytheon Sentinel? It's a Bombardier Global Express. The RCAF is in need of a capable ISTAR aircraft. Fulfilling that role will allow us to operate more independently and I would imagine CANSOFCOM wouldn't mind using more Canadian assets.
 

dimsum

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QuietSpike2020 said:
What about the Raytheon Sentinel? It's a Bombardier Global Express. The RCAF is in need of a capable ISTAR aircraft. Fulfilling that role will allow us to operate more independently and I would imagine CANSOFCOM wouldn't mind using more Canadian assets.

I don't know if you've heard, but Bombardier isn't really in the "airplane business" anymore.  Also, the RAF (sole users of the Sentinel) is planning on retiring it in 2021.  So...cheap airframes perhaps?  :whistle:

Finally, reading the Wiki page on it, the Sentinel requires ground stations to do the actual battle management and processing, instead of being able to do it in the air.  In that case, you might as well have MQ-9s or RQ-4s doing essentially the same job without the cost of the airframe (and still requiring the SATCOM link).
 

PuckChaser

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QuietSpike2020 said:
What about the Raytheon Sentinel? It's a Bombardier Global Express. The RCAF is in need of a capable ISTAR aircraft. Fulfilling that role will allow us to operate more independently and I would imagine CANSOFCOM wouldn't mind using more Canadian assets.

CANSOFCOM bought 3x Beechcraft King Airs similar to the MC-12W that AFSOC flies in the US. I highly doubt they're buying anything else right now. I'm sure the CA would love the RCAF to have a real ISTAR platform though, so we can keep the Aurora where it needs to be in ASW.
 

Mick

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While it is certainly true that Bombardier has divested itself of its commercial aircraft programs (C-Series, Q400, CRJ), it is still in the private/executive jet business, offering Challengers (350 and 650), Globals, and Learjet products.  So, airframes potentially suitable for military modification are still in production.
 

MarkOttawa

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USAF buying more Bombardier Global 6000s, via Lear, Wichita (company news release):

Bombardier Specialized Aircraft Confirms Deal with U.S. Air Force for up to Six More Global Aircraft in Special Mission Configuration​

  • Global business jets are the backbone of the U.S. Air Force Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN) program, and a go-to platform for special missions around the world
  • BACN aircraft, known in the U.S. Air Force as the E-11A, are developed and modified by Bombardier’s highly skilled engineering teams in Wichita, Kansas
  • Contract, which includes one firm aircraft order, underscores Bombardier’s status as a key U.S. aerospace employer
WICHITA, Kansas, June 02, 2021 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) — Bombardier is pleased to confirm an agreement between its Learjet Inc. subsidiary and the U.S. Air Force in support of the Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN) program. The Indefinite Delivery Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract provides the USAF with flexible ordering and includes an immediate firm order for one Global 6000 aircraft, with as many as five additional Global 6000 aircraft. The contract, which includes engineering and modification work, represents a potential total value of close to $465 million U.S.

Bombardier has already delivered four Global aircraft to the U.S. Air Force since 2007 for the BACN program, an airborne relay that extends communication ranges, bridges between radio frequencies and “translates” among incompatible communications systems. BACN aircraft are known in the U.S. Air Force as the E-11A.

“Bombardier is proud to be chosen once again by the U.S. Air Force to provide our high-performing Global aircraft and our unique expertise in support of the BACN program,” said Michel Ouellette, Executive Vice President, Specialized Aircraft, Programs and Engineering, Bombardier. “Our U.S.-based employees are honored to be lending their skills in support of this elite project.”

Bombardier teams in the U.S., who continue to provide in-service support and upgrades to the current BACN fleet, are poised to begin work on the next BACN aircraft in the coming days. Engineers and technicians at Bombardier Specialized Aircraft’s Center of Excellence in Wichita, Kansas, will modify the Global platform to support the communications equipment required for the mission, while teams in Tucson will provide the aircraft’s interior and eventually perform the exterior painting work.

Proud to be a major employer in the U.S. aviation sector, Bombardier works with local colleges and technical schools to help inspire and train the next generation of aerospace professionals.

Senator Jerry Moran (R-Kansas) had the following statement: “I am pleased to see that the Air Force is following through on its purchase of another E-11A aircraft to support battlefield communications for forward-deployed forces. These planes are engineered and outfitted for the Air Force right here in Wichita, and this purchase is the latest example of Kansans supporting our national security operations back at home.”

“Supporting the U.S. Air Force’s BACN program while increasing work for Kansas aviation manufacturers is a win for the Air Capital of the World and for our country,” said U.S. Representative Ron Estes (R-Kansas). “These Bombardier Global 6000 aircraft modified and tested in Wichita give our airmen a competitive advantage in flight and communication.”

“I’m proud to support the Air Force’s acquisition of additional E-11A BACN aircraft from Bombardier,” said U.S. Representative Ann Kirkpatrick (D-Arizona). “The BACN aircraft fleet connects our warfighters and allies during critical missions and supports highly skilled jobs right here in Tucson at Bombardier’s service center. I look forward to continuing to support the Air Force’s BACN program as a member of the Appropriations Committee.”

Bombardier Global aircraft, renowned in the business aviation industry for range, spaciousness and a smooth ride, are a proven, go-to platform for special government missions thanks to their speed, payload capacity, built-in power redundancy, reliability and endurance.

Bombardier Specialized Aircraft designs, develops and delivers a range of capabilities to operators around the world for a wide variety of missions including surveillance and reconnaissance, medical evacuations and VIP transport. Solutions range from turnkey packages comprising the complete design, building, testing and certification activity, through to specialist engineering support and technical oversight of customer-specific projects. For more information, please visit specializedaircraft.bombardier.com...

Mark Collins
 

Gorgo

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Could we get a hold of a flight of these aircraft? Would they be able to fit into the RCAF?
 

MarkOttawa

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Saab GlobalEye with Global 6000 airframe might be useful for RCAF:

GlobalEye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft is a new multi-role airborne surveillance system developed by Saab.

The aircraft is capable of offering air, maritime and ground surveillance on a single platform. It can operate in dedicated or multiple roles and has the ability to simultaneously switch between different roles at any point of time during an ongoing mission...


GlobalEye AEW&C platform is offered in three different configurations according to customer-specific requirements. The base configuration is equipped with the AEW&C capability to deliver aerial, maritime and ground surveillance.

The second variant integrates additional maritime surveillance radar and electro-optical sensors to transform the base platform to offer enhanced maritime and ground capabilities. The third version incorporates new sensors for electronic intelligence (ELINT) and signals intelligence (SIGINT) capability...
eye.jpg

Five of the planes sold to UAE:

Sweden also plans to buy the GlobalEye, and two of them are part of Saab's final offer of Gripen E as Finland's new fighter:

There's also the Saab Swordfish MPA proposal, again with Global 6000 airframe, no sales yet (also with Q400/Dash 8 airframe--how long will there be new builds?):

Mark Collins
 

dimsum

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Not sure we have the need, or the operators, for an AEW&C platform. We have a few folks OUTCAN but not sure if it's enough to stand up a squadron. It seems like, in our case, a solution looking for a problem.

As for the Swordfish, it's been on hiatus since 2018 since it hasn't got any orders.

 

CBH99

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As a general concept, I do agree - if the CF were to acquire some sort of dedicated ISR platform (crewed, that is) - ideally I would like to see that platform Canadian built.

Is it easier to buy a few airframes from Boeing or Airbus? Absolutely.



However (and I'm not trying to start this discussion over again, I know it's been discussed upthread) -- if Bombardier had been more aggressive in marketing some of it's aircraft, been more proactive in having designs ready for if a competition was launched, etc - I'd like to think Bombardier could be now, where Embraer is.

The CAF will never be a big enough customer on it's own to justify Bombardier designing/testing/building an aircraft type, just so the CAF can buy a whopping 6 or 8 of them. However, by taking already existing technologies and finding a way to integrate them into a Bombardier aircraft, it would have been feasible to offer a 'lower budget' solution to some countries looking for ISR or possibly even ASW assets.

Take for example our recent purchase of the C-295. The government had announced for decades that it intended purchase 15-16 aircraft to replace the birds doing SAR with a common airframe. The government more or less, throughout the many starts & stops, announced what it was looking for -- fast transit time, able to loiter on station for extended periods at a slow speed, a ramp at the back to deploy SAR techs, and technologies such as FLIR, Thermal, etc etc.

I'd like to think that Bombardier could have looked at the menu of aircraft it was building, chosen one to design some modifications of, and come up with something with roughly the same specs.



I'm not saying the above was necessarily doable. But I'd rather Bombardier at least 'tried' to earn our business, rather than chug along 'business as usual' knowing a government bailout was always an option.

(My apologies if the above seems full of potholes. I tend to follow that stuff as closely as possible, but there is always a great deal of details left out of the news articles.) <rant off>


0.02
 

kev994

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As a general concept, I do agree - if the CF were to acquire some sort of dedicated ISR platform (crewed, that is) - ideally I would like to see that platform Canadian built.

Is it easier to buy a few airframes from Boeing or Airbus? Absolutely.



However (and I'm not trying to start this discussion over again, I know it's been discussed upthread) -- if Bombardier had been more aggressive in marketing some of it's aircraft, been more proactive in having designs ready for if a competition was launched, etc - I'd like to think Bombardier could be now, where Embraer is.

The CAF will never be a big enough customer on it's own to justify Bombardier designing/testing/building an aircraft type, just so the CAF can buy a whopping 6 or 8 of them. However, by taking already existing technologies and finding a way to integrate them into a Bombardier aircraft, it would have been feasible to offer a 'lower budget' solution to some countries looking for ISR or possibly even ASW assets.

Take for example our recent purchase of the C-295. The government had announced for decades that it intended purchase 15-16 aircraft to replace the birds doing SAR with a common airframe. The government more or less, throughout the many starts & stops, announced what it was looking for -- fast transit time, able to loiter on station for extended periods at a slow speed, a ramp at the back to deploy SAR techs, and technologies such as FLIR, Thermal, etc etc.

I'd like to think that Bombardier could have looked at the menu of aircraft it was building, chosen one to design some modifications of, and come up with something with roughly the same specs.



I'm not saying the above was necessarily doable. But I'd rather Bombardier at least 'tried' to earn our business, rather than chug along 'business as usual' knowing a government bailout was always an option.

(My apologies if the above seems full of potholes. I tend to follow that stuff as closely as possible, but there is always a great deal of details left out of the news articles.) <rant off>


0.02
They did ‘try’ to sell us a FWSAR plane… by taking us to court to argue that we didn’t really need a ramp.
 
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