Saudi Arabia expels Canadian ambassador for urging release of activists

[Jed]

With whom, then?

That is the 64,000$ question, isn't it?  IMO we definitely need a change in government, but some high level bureaucrats somewhere have not done their homework and have not managed the political masters adequately.


This is leadership failure on a grand scale.  We probably need someone like Lester Pearson to set things right.

 

[Altair]

That is the 64,000$ question, isn't it?  IMO we definitely need a change in government, but some high level bureaucrats somewhere have not done their homework and have not managed the political masters adequately.


This is leadership failure on a grand scale.  We probably need someone like Lester Pearson to set things right.

Set thing right with Saudi Arabia?


Dear god.

 

[PuckChaser]

Or, like German and Sweden, decided it's better to stand up for what is right than to suck up to a murderous theocracy/dictatorship/monarchy.

I mean, unless that murderous dictatorship wants to reduce its carbon emissions, then they're good friends, right?

 

[Altair]

I mean, unless that murderous dictatorship wants to reduce its carbon emissions, then they're good friends, right?

nope,  that was stupid. But being wrong then doesnt make them wrong now.

 

[PuckChaser]

nope,  that was stupid. But being wrong then doesnt make them wrong now.

You're probably the only person arguing about the content of the tweet. Most of us don't mind KSA being called out. But to do it on Twitter, as a form conducting meaningful international diplomacy is a laughable attempt at best.

 

[Infanteer]

So what is meaningful?  A letter?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Maybe we should stop calling it a tweet, and just call it a statement.  Ignore the means of delivery.

People should be concerned about the content.

Canada proposed the Saudi government do something immediately.  For the government to comply would be to hand ammunition to all of its enemies to start generating propaganda (lackeys of foreign infidels, etc).  Prisoners could have been scheduled for imminent release this week and the government might now think it has to delay 6 months to demonstrate independence.  To some, the statement might look like an arrogant demand.

And obviously the Canadian government either has a very poor read on the KSA internal political situation (I can't credit that the statement would have been issued if there had been some foreknowledge of the likely blowback), or the people responsible for drafting and issuing the statement failed to consult those who might.

So, a least a means of delivery offering a longer character limit for nuance is recommended.

 

[PuckChaser]

So what is meaningful?  A letter?

Sure. Anything that's not from the Donald Trump school of international diplomacy.

 

[garb811]

Given the continued inability of users to abide by the rules despite two warnings in this thread, this is locked for a 24 hour cool down.

- milnet.ca Staff

 

[tomahawk6]

Sweden or Germany may not want to get involved most likely the PM will need to ask Trump. A good mission for Kushner who has been there a few times.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/canada-asks-help-saudi-dispute-175948008.html

 

[garb811]

Reopened.  Keep it within the rules.

 

[Til.Valhall]

I'm not quite sure why there's a big panic to make amends with the leadership of Saudi Arabia.

It's an extremely spoiled country that relies on western technology and expertise to make ends meet.

I'm still suffering the effects of their greed driven strategy of crashing the oil market in 2015-6, which caused a recession here in Canada.  A stupid strategy that backfired on them.

I find it odd that some people think Canada should try to bolster relations with that pathetic country.  They are our competitors at best, not our friends. We do not need to brown-nose Saudi Arabia like the U.S has done for decades. What a waste of time and energy.

 

[Xylric]

A thought:

If the equivalent person in the United States made the tweets/comments that set off this situation, it's unlikely that Saudia Arabia would have responded the same way. That's not anything remarkable, and has been pretty much stated in numerous places. No, my thought is that it seems as though Saudi Arabia is using this matter as a distraction. I don't think that will work long-term.

 

[a_majoor]

A thought occurred to me that the extreme reaction of the Sudis has a lot to do with who Canada's government is funding here at home: the National Council of Canadian Muslims received $23 million in taxpayer funding. The NCCM is an offshoot (or perhaps renaming) of CAIR, which is a creation of the Muslim Brotherhood and linked to other Islamic radical groups.

Given the fragile internal environment inside the Kingdom as the Crown Prince sets about reforms, having Canada suddenly weigh in on on internal issue, especially after pledging a lot of support for a group the KSA rightly suspects will attempt to induce turmoil during the reform process, would raise a lot of red flags in the Kingdom.

Whatever you might think of the Kingdom, they will work to advance their own interests, and given the current state of the Middle East and the alignment of the Sunni Kingdoms, Israel and the United States against Iran and her proxies, it makes a lot of sense to strike out at anyone who could destabilize this new alignment. It also explains the silence of the United States on this issue, and the fact that literally no one is stepping up to side with Canada-we made loud virtue signalling noises, but unlike normal virtue signalling where you expect no consequences, we intruded into an area where virtue signalling has very great consequences indeed.

 

[Blackadder1916]

One of the more interesting takes on the reason for the over the top Saudi reaction was presented a few days ago on CBC's Power and Politics.  The commentator, Thomas Juneau (identified as a former Middle East analyst for DND, now a U of Ottawa asst. prof) opined that neither the content of the specific tweet nor the method of presenting the message mattered in the slightest.  His thesis is that when the Saudis made the deal for the LAVs back in 2014, they didn't particularly want or need that specific vehicle.  What they were actually purchasing was a greater relationship with Canada; they wanted us to be better friends and partners.  All was well and good, particularly while the Conservative government was still in power, but after the Liberals won the election things became more problematic.  Though the Liberals had no difficulty with continuing friendly relations with the Saudis, once the more vocal elements of its base began questioning the sale of  armoured vehicles, the Liberals were not wont to be complimentary towards the KSA.  Other than some mild rapprochement such as the tweet in question, it was minimal dealings.  Not what the Saudis thought they had bought and paid for (okay, they haven't paid for it yet).  The tweet in question was just a convenient and timely excuse to end any fiction of a relationship.

(My thoughts vice those of the above commentator)

There is probably some basis to the above.  As it stands now, one of the major "other shoes to drop" is whether the LAV deal will continue.  As I read numerous articles that refer to it a "Canadian" deal, I can't help but reflect that the company that makes and sells those vehicles is not a Canadian company.  The factory may be in Canada and nominally it may be owned by a "Canadian" subsidiary, but it is a US multinational and multi-divisional company.  If the deal shits the bed, it won't be the Canadian government being able to sue for losses, nor, if a suit was successful would Canadian workers be the beneficiaries of a settlement.  Should the Saudis still want an armoured vehicle comparable to the LAV, there are similar vehicles made by other divisions of GDLS in other countries.

 

[a_majoor]

I'm pretty sure LAV production could be shifted to the GDLS facility in Alabama, if that eventuality ever arises. However, I am hearing about other potential losses not so easily made up. Apparently 60 Interns in the Hamilton medical system will be recalled to Saud Arabia, removing something like 20% of the Intern staffing. Perhaps more alarming is each intern also comes with $100,000 in funding, which puts a big hole in their finances was well as their staffing.

Now rinse and repeat across the Canadian medical system nation wide.....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Further to Blackadders comments about relationships, KSA has been creating a vertical infrastructure to ensure that grains from Canada get to the country, that includes the old CWB (now G3) a new grain handling facility under construction in North Vancouver and I understand their own ships. It would make sense to have a food supply based in a stable country like Canada, one less thing they need to worry about, or so they thought. 

 

[FJAG]

I'm pretty sure LAV production could be shifted to the GDLS facility in Alabama, if that eventuality ever arises. However, I am hearing about other potential losses not so easily made up. Apparently 60 Interns in the Hamilton medical system will be recalled to Saud Arabia, removing something like 20% of the Intern staffing. Perhaps more alarming is each intern also comes with $100,000 in funding, which puts a big hole in their finances was well as their staffing.

Now rinse and repeat across the Canadian medical system nation wide.....

London Health Sciences Centre is losing 35 residents and 56 medical fellows: about 10%of LHSC's residents and fellows.

:cheers:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am sorry to be the bearer of a reality check.

95% of Sausi doctors studying in Canada at the resident/fellow level go back to Saudi Arabia or somewhere around there after they graduate. (BTW, what is this bull***t of "recalling" them? They are not the property of the Kingdom [except if you accept that the kingdom is an absolute monarchy that owns its people and they have to obey the king]).

They make up a reasonable percentage of the resident and fellow of Canada's major Universities with medical programs recognized worldwide - meaning really UBC, Queen's, U of T, Western, McGill and Dalhousie, where they make up about 10% of the student body.

Thing is, however, those universities programs are so well thought of around the world that they can actually replace those students at the drop of a hat.

What about the money? Well, it may drop each Universities revenue a couple of millions a year in tuition, but otherwise, it's no big deal. The GoC could make it up in flash.

So, please, don't try (anyone) to bull@@@t us with the Kingdom being important to Canada's medical system. It's a blatant lie.

 

[PuckChaser]

Thing is, however, those universities programs are so well thought of around the world that they can actually replace those students at the drop of a hat.

What about the money? Well, it may drop each Universities revenue a couple of millions a year in tuition, but otherwise, it's no big deal. The GoC could make it up in flash.

The drop of a hat in August, 3 weeks before the school year starts? Get real. We'd be getting the bottom third who don't have placements.

Also, a couple million dollars in tuition per year is a pretty big chunk of change.

I don't get how you can be so flippant with the situation, and not provide any sort of background information to back up your claims that this is "no big deal".