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SAR Response Under the Gun Again

The Bread Guy

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Eye In The Sky said:
Good grief.  I did it again.  I let myself read the comments section.  :facepalm:
What is seen cannot be unseen....
 

OldSolduer

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Why is it that doctors, lawyers, social welfare workers and many others are given a free pass when they make grievous errors? There are exceptions - occassionally you see people stripped of the privilege of practicing medicine or law. Rarely will you see a social worker held to account.
But when it comes to military search and rescue it seems everyone is an expert pilot, and SAR tech. Yet none are.
It's like me, an infanteer making dumb comments in the F 35 thread.

:facepalm:
 

Fiera

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Jim Seggie said:
Why is it that doctors, lawyers, social welfare workers and many others are given a free pass when they make grievous errors?

Because Doctors and Lawyers at least, I don't know about welfare workers, have a form of malpractice insurance that will pay out a ridiculous amount of money upon threat of being sued to have the entire issue swept under the table.
 

OldSolduer

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Fiera said:
Because Doctors and Lawyers at least, I don't know about welfare workers, have a form of malpractice insurance that will pay out a ridiculous amount of money upon threat of being sued to have the entire issue swept under the table.

Good point, thanks!

 

mariomike

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Why is it that doctors, lawyers, social welfare workers and many others are given a free pass when they make grievous errors? There are exceptions - occassionally you see people stripped of the privilege of practicing medicine or law.

Not everyone is given a free pass.

Lawsuit payouts are not disclosed to the public.

The City of Toronto pays for a $5 million medical malpractice insurance policy for each paramedic. It covers you on-duty, and off-duty.

"Unlike police, doctors, lawyers and others, complaints against emergency medical service staff are investigated internally and in secret. The service never announces the results or what is done to fix the problem."
Star Aug 13 2011

 

The Bread Guy

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Protesters were out....
Protesters on the coast of Labrador and in St. John's on Thursday evening called for improved military search and rescue services as a result of the military's response to the search for Burton Winters .... In St. John's, dozens of protesters gathered on Confederation Hill, singing in his honour and holding up protest signs. "We understand that Burton will never come home," choked a teary Stephanie Fost, Winters' aunt. "However we would like for future Burtons to have the fighting chance to return home to their loving friends and family." Protests were also held Thursday night in Nain and Natuashish ....

.... and the Minister speaks in the House:
.... A full investigation has now been completed. We have a much greater understanding of the timeline and the way that these tragic events unfolded. Both the RCMP and Canadian Forces officials have explained some of these circumstances. There are improvements that can be made perhaps in protocol and we are in a constant state of update and improvement .... Our country has the largest search and rescue territory on the planet. We have dedicated SAR techs who do their best each and every time. As officials said yesterday and the member has just repeated, the weather in Makkovik was a factor when the first call came in. It impacted on officials' decisions as to when to dispatch aircraft. As explained by Admiral Gardam yesterday, the weather was an issue. The first call came 20 hours after this young man had apparently left his home. A second call came some 51 hours later.
 

Retired AF Guy

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Grimaldus said:
Did they discover what the teenager was doing out there?


The 14-year-old died last week after becoming lost on the ice near his home in Makkovick, Labrador while heading to his grandmother’s house on snowmobile.
The Western Star

RCMP said Winters had walked for 19 kilometres through rough snow and jagged ice, after he abandoned his snowmobile. He was about seven kilometres from shore, although police said his tracks showed that the path was following the shoreline. His snowmobile was found about 11.5 kilometres outside Makkovik.
CBC
 

Nfld Sapper

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Call-back protocol for searches to be reviewed: MacKay
CBC News Posted: Feb 13, 2012 5:06 PM NT Last Updated: Feb 13, 2012 5:02 PM NT



li-mackay-peter-20120213.jpg

Defence Minister Peter MacKay wants search and rescue call-back protocols revisited. (CBC)


Federal Defence Minister Peter MacKay has asked for a review of the search and rescue protocol that puts the responsibility on searchers to call the military back for help.

MacKay was responding to questions from reporters in Halifax Monday about the search for Labrador teen Burton Winters, who died recently near Makkovik.

The military has faced criticism over its role in the search.

nl-winters-burton-250-fb.jpg

Burton Winters, shown in a photo posted to a Facebook tribute page, died off the coast of Labrador. (Facebook)

"This wasn’t a matter of the military not responding," MacKay said. "There is a protocol that was followed. Now that protocol, in fact, between RCMP, ground search, the province, and in this case the military, may have to be reviewed. And that’s what I have committed to Premier (Kathy) Dunderdale, is that we will look at improving this protocol, looking at perhaps the call-back procedure.”

When the military was initially called the morning after Winters was reported missing, weather and then mechanical problems kept two Griffon helicopters in Goose Bay grounded. Civilian choppers joined the search.

Under the current protocol, the onus then reverts to the searchers to call the military a second time.

In the Winters case, that didn’t happen until more than 48 hours after the boy was reported missing
.

Winters was found dead on the ice a day after that. He had walked 19 kilometres from his abandoned snowmobile before succumbing.

MacKay said he spoke to Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Kathy Dunderdale over the weekend, and pledged to look at search protocols “in terms of the onus being on the caller.”

Premier's concerns
Dunderdale recently told CBC News she wants more answers about what happened in the Winters case.

“People in this province have an expectation and a right to these kind of services, and the way they were provided in this case was not satisfactory," the premier said.

A series of protests in St. John's and in several Labrador communities have called for improved military search and rescue services.


 
A

aesop081

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A series of protests in St. John's and in several Labrador communities have called for improved military search and rescue services.

Insert:

"5 Wing Goose bay to remain open despite being a pointless drain of DND resources".

With cuts at DND a reality, i'm sure the future of that POS base will come up. This incident will be used as ammo.
 

ballz

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Retired AF Guy said:

That one is an opinion piece, and being from the west coast of Newfoundland I don't trust many of the people that write their opinions into the Western Star to be credible sources, and the CBC one doesn't say what he was doing (well at least not the part you quoted).

That was a long way from home out on a snowmobile, alone and not equipped (for anybody, let alone a 14 year old) and I still think the parents owe just as many answers as the Canadian Forces or DND.

 

Stoker

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ballz said:
That one is an opinion piece, and being from the west coast of Newfoundland I don't trust many of the people that write their opinions into the Western Star to be credible sources, and the CBC one doesn't say what he was doing (well at least not the part you quoted).

That was a long way from home out on a snowmobile, alone and not equipped (for anybody, let alone a 14 year old) and I still think the parents owe just as many answers as the Canadian Forces or DND.

The kid was a Junior Canadian Ranger who just got back from a exercise that day, I doubt if he was dressed or prepared for it though.
 

ballz

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Here's the DND report which I am reading now http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/investigation-into-makkovik-incident-bilingual-version.pdf

A few interesting things so far,

" He had last been seen approximately 5 ½ hours earlier (at 1330hrs AST 29 Jan 12)
departing his Grandmother’s house, alone and on snowmobile.  The teenager
was a Junior Canadian Ranger (JCR) and had been involved in a JCR outing
earlier in the day, but he had returned from the outing prior to being reported
missing."

And to do with the weather:

"Reports from the Patrol 2I/C during the day of Mon 30 Jan indicated that local weather conditions were poor and that aircraft were not able to conduct the search."

"FES-NL requested CF assistance in a ‘missing persons’ case to conduct an air search.  This request to the JRCC came after FES-NL had first tried to secure civil aviation assets; however, the civil assets reported they were unable to assist due to weather conditions in Makkovik."
 

M Feetham

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I feel bad for the kid and his family. Why he was out there alone we will never know. I do know and i believe it 100% that the SAR Techs would have done whatever was necessary to help that young man. Unfortuneatley civilians only see a dead 14 yr old boy. They don't understand about CF flight regulations, nor do they care to learn. Like someone else already said, it is human nature to look for someone to blame. As is most often the case when the CF is involved, it gets laid at our feet. One thing about that though, we are tough, we can take it. We do our jobs to the best of our abilities, as long as we can remember that then the rest doesn't matter.
Ready Aye Ready  :cdn: 
 

The Bread Guy

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Highlights mine....
At the request of the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Peter MacKay, the Canadian Forces conducted a review of Canadian Forces protocols with regards to Ground Search and Rescue.  The legal authority for Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR), including the response for missing or lost persons, belongs to provincial and territorial governments, and as such, the Canadian Forces reviewed its protocols in consultation with partner agencies.  The review is now complete and the Department of National Defence has amended the protocol for its participation in support of Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR) operations. The amended protocol provides an additional layer of diligence, with all parties agreeing to implement a military feedback mechanism, to increase direct communications between agencies, to enhance situational awareness and to improve communication between GSAR partners.

(....)

There are provisions for the Canadian Forces (CF) to assist GSAR operations through the provisions of search and rescue aircraft. In general, the use of CF aircraft in GSAR operations is reserved for instances when no other option is available, or when the requirements of the search are beyond the means of provincially secured assets. In this way the CF can remain postured to respond to its primary SAR mandate, namely aeronautical and maritime SAR events.

The new protocol was recommended following a recent meeting led by Fire and Emergency Services Newfoundland (FES-NL), to discuss interagency coordination in GSAR events. Participation included FES-NL and representatives from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), Royal Newfoundland Constabulary (RNC), Newfoundland Department of Justice (DOJ) and members from the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC) in Halifax ....
DND Info-machine, 8 Mar 12

Plain language?  This from the CBC:
The Department of National Defence is changing how the military handles search and rescue calls following the tragic death of a teenage Labrador snowmobiler.

Military officials will no longer wait for a call back from anyone needing assistance in a search ....
 

Brew

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Why do they insist on blaming this unfortunate incident solely on SAR?  There is very rarely anything in the news about what risks they take and people they are able to help.  What happened to this young man was very unfortunate and I can not imagine what he dealt with and what his family continues to deal with. I mean no disrespect here but why was he where he was alone and ill prepared at 14 y/o?  Why did it take so long for the initial call to SAR to be made?  If they needed SAR why didn't they call again?  With a missing 14 y/o I would expect someone to be ringing the phone off the hook.  From my understanding due to shear numbers the control center has to keep but close files in order to keep up with current situations.  Im sure there are improvements that can be made to SAR protocals for intiating a launch as nothing is perfect but I just see a witch hunt here after reading the document someone provided a link to here in another thread.
 

OldSolduer

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Are we going to see a crucifixion? That is what the Fifth Estate does.

Damn the facts!! Full speed ahead!!
 

RubberTree

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I would expect nothing less of the CBC. Today's top story will get that ball rolling.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/03/22/nl-fifth-winters1-322.html
 

Robert0288

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Jim Seggie said:
Are we going to see a crucifixion? That is what the Fifth Estate does.

Damn the facts!! Full speed ahead!!

Must not make iceberg/titanic joke in a SAR thread.....
 
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