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Rick's Napkin Forces Challenge

Kirkhill

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Since we're on the subject of SMGs....

The U.S. Army Selects New Submachine Gun​

The Swiss-made Brugger and Thomet APC9K is the Army’s first official subgun since World War II.

The U.S. Army has officially selected the Brugger and Thomet APC9K to outfit its Personal Security Details.

The APC9K is the first new submachine gun for the U.S. Army since the M3 “Greasegun” of World War II. The service will buy 350 of the compact automatic weapons for $2.5 million, with an option to buy 1,000 more. The B&T APC9K beat out guns from more than ten other companies, including Colt and Heckler and Koch, as well as guns based on the M-16 and MP-5 weapons platforms.

The APC9K is an entirely new submachine gun developed in conjunction with and for EKO Cobra, Austria’s counterterrorism unit. The gun uses a closed-bolt blowback system, has a maximum rate of fire of 1,080 rounds per minute, and weighs just 5.9 pounds with 30-round magazine, foregrip, and Aimpoint micro red dot aiming sight. It’s chambered in 9-millimeter Parabellum and comes standard with two 30-round translucent magazines.



1080 rounds per minute
18 rounds per second
30 rounds per magazine
1.666 seconds per magazine

120 paces per minute
2 paces per second

Left-Right-Left...Change Mags!
 

Kirkhill

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I would not change anything, because it would be a waste of time, unless this new party came in with a very strong mandate and could hold power for at least 2 full terms, nothing would happen.

First term would 2 of the 5 years to write the white paper, the next 2 years would eat up the time to put into action with funding, golden parachutes for those who want to leave before the big changes comes on the civilian side of the table. At the same time there would be the great influx of retirements of soldiers who no longer had commands or jobs, after reading the white paper. It would take 1 to 3 years to close any unneeded bases ( Toronto was a base on the Friday but slated for closure the next week, took 3 years to close it, only to keep part of it open).

Then a general election is called, other parties would bring the record of bases closing, troops being down sized and how this is bad for Canada and how it is bad for the tax payer. If the party won the election and could continue the plan to down size and de militarize the army, then the actual plan would start coming in and by the time the plan was at phase 1 , there would be another election and new government because it is the new reality our governments do not go much beyond 2 terms.

Then the new government plans comes into being and re do the whole show over

This is the part that is missing in Ottawa - that and the willingness of all committee members to go against their own party leaders.


Defence Committee​

Commons Select Committee​

The Defence Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Ministry of Defence and its associated public bodies.

11 current committee members​

Export list as CSVView former members

Rt Hon Tobias Ellwood MP
Conservative
Bournemouth East
Chair

Commons


Stuart Anderson MP
Conservative
Wolverhampton South West
Commons


Sarah Atherton MP
Conservative
Wrexham
Commons


Martin Docherty-Hughes MP
Scottish National Party
West Dunbartonshire
Commons


Richard Drax MP
Conservative
South Dorset
Commons


Rt Hon Mark Francois MP
Conservative
Rayleigh and Wickford
Commons


Rt Hon Kevan Jones MP
Labour
North Durham
Commons


Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck MP
Labour
South Shields
Commons


Gavin Robinson MP
Democratic Unionist Party
Belfast East
Commons


Rt Hon John Spellar MP
Labour
Warley
Commons


Derek Twigg MP
Labour
Halton
Commons

“We’re going to need a bigger Navy”
Inquiry The Navy: purpose and procurement
Committees Defence Committee
Published 14 December 2021

Protecting those who protect us: Women in the Armed Forces from Recruitment to Civilian Life
Inquiry Women in the Armed Forces: From Recruitment to Civilian Life
Committees Defence Committee
Published 25 July 2021

Fourth Special Report - Protecting those who protect us: Women in the Armed Forces from Recruitment to Civilian Life: Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report
Published 2 December 2021

Fourth Special Report - Protecting those who protect us: Women in the Armed Forces from Recruitment to Civilian Life: Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report
Inquiry Women in the Armed Forces: From Recruitment to Civilian Life
Committees Defence Committee
Published 2 December 2021

Russia and Ukraine border tensions
Inquiry Russia and Ukraine border tensions
Committees Defence Committee
Published 6 July 2021

Third Special Report - Russia and Ukraine border tensions: Government Response to the Committee’s First Report
Published 23 September 2021

Third Special Report - Russia and Ukraine border tensions: Government Response to the Committee’s First Report
Inquiry Russia and Ukraine border tensions
Committees Defence Committee
Published 23 September 2021

Sixth Report: Manpower or mindset: Defence’s contribution to the UK’s pandemic response
Inquiry Defence contribution to the UK’s pandemic response
Committees Defence Committee
Published 25 March 2021

Manpower or mindset: Defence’s contribution to the UK’s pandemic response: Government Response to the Committee’s Sixth Report of Session 2019–21
Published 9 July 2021

Manpower or mindset: Defence’s contribution to the UK’s pandemic response: Government Response to the Committee’s Sixth Report of Session 2019–21
Inquiry Defence contribution to the UK’s pandemic response
Committees Defence Committee
Published 9 July 2021

Fifth report: Obsolescent and outgunned: the British Army’s armoured vehicle capability
Inquiry Progress in delivering the British Army’s armoured vehicle capability
Committees Defence Committee
Published 14 March 2021

First Special Report: Obsolescent and outgunned: the British Army’s armoured vehicle capability: Government Response to the Committee’s Fifth Report of Session 2019–21
Published 21 May 2021

First Special Report: Obsolescent and outgunned: the British Army’s armoured vehicle capability: Government Response to the Committee’s Fifth Report of Session 2019–21
Inquiry Progress in delivering the British Army’s armoured vehicle capability
Committees Defence Committee
Published 21 May 2021

Foreign Involvement in the Defence Supply Chain
Inquiry Foreign Involvement in the Defence Supply Chain
Committees Defence Committee
Published 14 February 2021

Fifth Special Report: Foreign Involvement in the Defence Supply Chain: Government Response to the Committee's Fourth Report of Session 2019–21
Published 27 April 2021

Fifth Special Report: Foreign Involvement in the Defence Supply Chain: Government Response to the Committee's Fourth Report of Session 2019–21
Inquiry Foreign Involvement in the Defence Supply Chain
Committees Defence Committee
Published 27 April 2021

Second Report - The Security of 5G
Inquiry The Security of 5G
Committees Defence Committee
Published 8 October 2020

The Security of 5G: Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report of Session 2019–21
Published 16 December 2020

The Security of 5G: Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report of Session 2019–21
Inquiry The Security of 5G
Committees Defence Committee
Published 16 December 2020

Pre-appointment hearing for the Service Complaints Ombudsman
Work Pre-appointment hearing for the Service Complaints Ombudsman (Pre-appointment hearing)
Committees Defence Committee
Published 3 December 2020

In Search of Strategy — The 2020 Integrated Review
Inquiry The Integrated Security, Defence and Foreign Policy Review
Committees Defence Committee
Published 13 August 2020

In Search of Strategy—The 2020 Integrated Review: Government Response to the Committee’s First Report of Session 2019–21
Published 22 October 2020

In Search of Strategy—The 2020 Integrated Review: Government Response to the Committee’s First Report of Session 2019–21
Inquiry The Integrated Security, Defence and Foreign Policy Review
Committees Defence Committee
Published 22 October 2020

Drawing a Line: Protecting Veterans by a Statute of Limitations: Government Response to the Defence Committee’s Seventeenth Report of Session 2017–19
Committees Defence Committee
Published 6 May 2020

Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report 2018: Government Response to the Committee’s Eighteenth Report of Session 2017–19
Committees Defence Committee
Published 9 March 2020
 

KevinB

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1080 rounds per minute
18 rounds per second
30 rounds per magazine
1.666 seconds per magazine

120 paces per minute
2 paces per second

Left-Right-Left...Change Mags!
The entire program was rife with stupidity. The M4A1 was "too long" (read not cool enough) - and they refused to look at the 10.3" Mk18 upper that SOCOM uses - as it was still too long, nor would they accept the addition of the Law Tactical Folder (which has NSN 1005-01-672-4614) which SOCOM and the US Army already uses on M4, M18, and M110's.

In short some idiot wanted a 9mm Sub gun to look cool for pictures with zero thought to the actual operational requirements of a weapon system.
 

OldSolduer

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I'd like to say one thing - it will probably turn out to be more - but can we put back the "light" in infantry?
I warned you didn't I?
I have said this before BUT I want to reiterate it. Every time a replacement ruck/web gear or what ever was issued some brain thought that meant "the soldiers can carry more equipment" with zero thought given to the weight and its displacement.
 

FJAG

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I warned you didn't I?
I have said this before BUT I want to reiterate it. Every time a replacement ruck/web gear or what ever was issued some brain thought that meant "the soldiers can carry more equipment" with zero thought given to the weight and its displacement.
I used to think I was hard done by when I had to strap a 25/77 set to my rucksack for the two or three kilometres I had to hike when dismounted from my M113. All my gear inclusive of the C1 I carried as a FOO (I carried the C1 in the belief that I wouldn't look like a FOO to the pretend Commies) must have come in at around fifty pounds tops.

I can't even imagine what it was like for the guys in the sandbox. A 100 lbs+ in 40 to 50 degrees C+ 😣

🍻
 

Kirkhill

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Funny thing about those 77s. They must have been jet propelled.

I remember working in syndicates at Gagetown. The guy in the rear without the gear was always lagging back and falling off the interval. No amount of cajoling would make him keep up.

Next leg he turns into the syndicate leader. Now he gets the radio. All of a sudden he is legging it as if he is on a cross country race and nobody can keep up with him, despite the extra 15lbs on his back.
 

KevinB

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I'd like to say one thing - it will probably turn out to be more - but can we put back the "light" in infantry?
I warned you didn't I?
I have said this before BUT I want to reiterate it. Every time a replacement ruck/web gear or what ever was issued some brain thought that meant "the soldiers can carry more equipment" with zero thought given to the weight and its displacement.
I used to think I was hard done by when I had to strap a 25/77 set to my rucksack for the two or three kilometres I had to hike when dismounted from my M113. All my gear inclusive of the C1 I carried as a FOO (I carried the C1 in the belief that I wouldn't look like a FOO to the pretend Commies) must have come in at around fifty pounds tops.

I can't even imagine what it was like for the guys in the sandbox. A 100 lbs+ in 40 to 50 degrees C+ 😣

🍻
I had posted the US Army load carriage study here several years ago - there was also an informal one done by 1 and 3 VP to solider load @MJP and some others will probably remember.

The take away was Light Infantry meant you carry a heavy load and become combat ineffective. For those who where on course shortly after the Bravo Two Zero was released - the BS number put out by "Andy McNab" Steve Mitchell on both the weight of their packs and the distance they traveled with them inspired a lot of CF NCO's and Officers (at least in the PPCLI) to see how much weight would physically crush a soldier.
**News flash a '64 pattern jump ruck can indeed be loaded well over 180lbs, I say that from personal experience.

The "Iron Man" suit and several autonomous Mule vehicles and drone supply systems came about from the early loads dismounted forces where carrying early in Afghanistan and Iraq. About the same time we also seemed to have learned that troops can be rotated even from SR missions, and endurance on the same can be extended via Helo resupply (and GPS Parachute delivery) rather than making folks carry insane amount of gear.
 

OldSolduer

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The take away was Light Infantry meant you carry a heavy load and become combat ineffective. For those who where on course shortly after the Bravo Two Zero was released - the BS number put out by "Andy McNab" Steve Mitchell on both the weight of their packs and the distance they traveled with them inspired a lot of CF NCO's and Officers (at least in the PPCLI) to see how much weight would physically crush a soldier.
**News flash a '64 pattern jump ruck can indeed be loaded well over 180lbs, I say that from personal experience.

The "Iron Man" suit and several autonomous Mule vehicles and drone supply systems came about from the early loads dismounted forces where carrying early in Afghanistan and Iraq. About the same time we also seemed to have learned that troops can be rotated even from SR missions, and endurance on the same can be extended via Helo resupply (and GPS Parachute delivery) rather than making folks carry insane amount of gear.
Yes - I can attest to the idea that there were fools who thought that making a soldier carry a 120 pound ruck was the way to go. All it did was injure backs, knees, ankles, ligaments, tendons etc .
 

RangerRay

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Yes - I can attest to the idea that there were fools who thought that making a soldier carry a 120 pound ruck was the way to go. All it did was injure backs, knees, ankles, ligaments, tendons etc .
A great way to force lots of good soldiers out of the army before they even go on operations. 🤦‍♂️
 

KevinB

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A great way to force lots of good soldiers out of the army before they even go on operations. 🤦‍♂️

 

daftandbarmy

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Funny thing about those 77s. They must have been jet propelled.

I remember working in syndicates at Gagetown. The guy in the rear without the gear was always lagging back and falling off the interval. No amount of cajoling would make him keep up.

Next leg he turns into the syndicate leader. Now he gets the radio. All of a sudden he is legging it as if he is on a cross country race and nobody can keep up with him, despite the extra 15lbs on his back.

Day trip: 95lbs

3 day trip: 130lbs


On airborne exercises we had to weigh our gear as part of the loading plan. I recall that my Pl Signaler weighed 145lbs, and 'jumped and humped' with 110lbs of weapons, radio, batteries etc. I got away with a measly 80-90lbs. We regularly covered about 20 miles per day, in the mountains. On Ops we carried similar loads.
 

FJAG

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A blast from the past - FM 21-18 Foot Marches 1 June 1990:

2-7. INDIVIDUAL LOAD
To prevent an individual load from hindering a marching soldier’s mobility and combat readiness, commanders must reduce the carried load to the minimum mission-essential and survival equipment.
a. The individual’s combat load is that mission-essential equipment as determined by the commander, which is required for the soldier to fight and survive immediate combat operations. The load can be divided into an approach march load and fighting load. The fighting load should not exceed 48 pounds, and the approach march load (which includes the fighting load) should be less than 72 pounds, based upon individual abilities.

🍻
 

Kirkhill

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Resurrection. After all it is Easter.

Rethought after today's discussions.

Expeditionary Army

CANSOFCOM
427 SOAS
CFJIRU
JTF 2
CSOR
1 RCR (SOC)
1 Cdn Div
HQ & Sigs Regt
1 CMBG2 CMBG (CCSB)5e GBMC
HQ & Sigs SqnHQ & Sigs SqnHQ & Sigs Sqn
Service GpService GpService Gp
408 TacHel450 TacHel430 TacHel
1 RCHA2 RCHA (AD)5e RLAC
LdSH(RC)4 RCA (GS)12e RBC
1 PPCLIRCD1 R22eR
2 PPCLI21 EWR2 R22eR
2 RCR3 RCR

RCR goes all in for the Light/SOC roles and gets a prestige appointment in CANSOFCOM

After that, everybody sorts it out for themselves.

Domestic Air Force

CANR
1 Cdn Air Div
4 Ftr Wing19 ISR Wing3 Ftr Wing
8Tpt Wing
JTF(N)
4 GBD Sqns
440 Sqn
Cdn Rangers
1 CRPG2 CRPG3 CRPG4 CRPG5 CRPG
JRCC Victoria
JRCC Trenton
JRCC Halifax
JTF(Pac)JTF(W)JTF(C)JTF(E)JTF(Atl)
3 GBD Sqns3 GBD Sqns3 GBD Sqns3 GBD Sqns3 GBD Sqns
435 Sqn417 Sqn424 Sqn439 Sqn413 Sqn
442 Sqn444/130 Sqn
TDG 01TDG 02TDG 03TDG 04TDG 05TDG 06TDG 07TDG 08TDG 09
HQHQHQHQHQHQHQHQHQ
CommsCommsCommsCommsCommsCommsCommsCommsComms
SvcSvcSvcSvcSvcSvcSvcSvcSvc
EngEngEngEngEngEngEngEngEng
5 Fd RCA20 Ind RCA116 Ind RCA56 Fd RCA7 Fd RCA30 Fd RCA2 Fd RCA62 Fd RCA1 Fd RCA
15 Fd RCA20 Fd RCA10 Fd RCA11 Fd RCA49 Fd RCA42 Fd RCARCH6 Fd RCA3 Fd RCA
BCDSALH26 Fd RCA1HQYROntRRdHullSherH8 CH
BCRKOCRFGHWindsorRGGHGGGFGCGG12RBC(M)PEIR
CanScotCalgHSaskDE&KscotRHFofCCHofORMtlRVoltigeursHfx Rfls
SHofCLERRRR4 RCRQORofCSD&GHRHRofCRChaudPLFus
RWmRRWpgRElginsRRofCBrockRFusMRRSagWNSR
RMtnRQOCHofCG&SForTorScotPWORRMaisFusSherCBH
LSSRRHLILorneScotAlgR4 R22R6 R22RRNBR
A&SHofCH&PERIrRofCNorthShore
L&WRRNfldR

The Hierarchy would stay the same.
The span of interests of the HQs would increase
Militia Regiments would primarily supply Infantry Coys for Territorial Defence.
They would also supply a Troop/Platoon for augmentation of the Expeditionary Army.

GBD Sqn is a Ground Based Defence Squadron - to be equipped with SAMs, ABMs, Coastal Defence Missiles, RPAS and potentially LCAAT aircraft launched from fixed points. There are 19 of them in total, reinstating the old Radar Squadrons and supplying each of the southern Joint Task Forces with 3 Squadrons and JTF(N) with 4 Squadrons.

JTF(N) also takes command of all the CRPGs regardless of which territory or province they are located in.
 
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