RHIP

[Navalsnpr]

For those who haven't seen the acronym RHIP, it stands for Rank Has It's Privileges.

I wanted to start a discussion regarding the differences between the elements when certain items are "dished out". For example, in my Army days in West Germany, when we returned to Hohenfels after a couple of weeks in the field, there were always a tonne of line ups like Showers, Food & Pay to name a few. Anyways, we always formed up in single line with the Privates at the front of the line and the Company OC at the rear. If they ran out of water, food or cash, then the senior COC would do without. Makes pure sense to me to have the troops who break their backs get taken care of first.

Since my time in the Navy, I've noticed that in the Navy this normally is completely reversed. For example, trials were ongoing and the ship was able to allow 20-30 personnel go for early. It turned out that the only personnel to be able to go were Officers and Snr NCO's. Personally I agree with the Army way of doing business.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Infanteer]

I have always liked the Army way of doing things.  Leadership at any level involves putting your troops before yourself, so even the Corporal firing the young Private infront of them for chow is good leadership.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Sounds like the Navy I served in hasn't changed much.

Here is a good example of the long standing problems with the Navy. In the 80's, the CO of our ship was getting married. We were all encouraged [ie threatened] by the XO not to object to the pilfering of mess funds to purchase a complete set of appliances as wedding gifts. It turned out later that some of the officers and the chiefs did object to the taking of funds from their mess accounts, and they basically left the JR mess to pick up virtually the entire tab.

Another example is when fresh water on the steamers would run shy due to evap problems, the officers and chiefs would still take showers and send their laundry down to be cleaned, while the rest of us were cut off.

A third example is shore leave events in foreign ports. When I was on HMAS Darwin, the EW dept was invited by the USN to an evening beach bbq while the ship was in Pearl. The BBQ was for JR EW/NESOP types throughout the entire RIMPAC force. I know the EW depts on Canadian ships were invited as well, because I saw the message. I went there with a bunch of AB from Darwin, expecting to run into my HMCS crew mates, instead the only Canadian pers who were there were chiefs and officers.  I would have thought that the LS and MS would have liked to attend, since I was only an AB at the time. Talk about keeping a low profile!!

 

[backinblack]

I prefer the Army way as well.  The men come first, that's what I was taught.

 

[backinblack]

What's the Airforce rule of thumb for this?

 

[Navalsnpr]

What's the Airforce rule of thumb for this?

Good question.

The Air Force tend to take care of all their ranks very well from what I observed in Shearwater and onboard the ship.

We had an air crew MWO always pitch in during cleaning stations on one of the ships I was on. All I will say is Leadership by Example as none of the guys from the air det complained about doing cleaning stations.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Wow, I had no idea that the "army" way wasn't "the" way. Here is a post from the Artillery thread from one of my old TSM's,
Mrgnr27,

Remember the day we were at Weston-On-The-Green doing the balloon jumps ? I specifically remember taking issue over the subalterns making a b-line for the box lunches BEFORE the troops. One of them pouted and punted his box lunch down range rather than give it up !Oi !! The memories, mate !!
.http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25655/post-157491.html#msg157491
.
.I must admit in the Artillery when it came to food the troops were first and woe to those who didn't subscribe to that theory.....

 

[Inch]

What's the Airforce rule of thumb for this?

In the MH world we take care of our guys, if we didn't, the fishheads would screw them around just like they do to their own men. Normally when we're disembarked we don't have much contact with the techs other than for starts and such. They work for the AEREs, the only NCMs that I work with are AESOps and they tend to be Sgts and above so they don't get the shaft that often, if ever.

The techs on the other hand, since we don't sail with an AERE, they fall under the Det Commander and the other 5 officers in the Det to look out for them when the fishheads are being dicks. I have yet to sail, but I've heard that it's happened on more than one occasion where a Capt took over painting from a Cpl so that the Cpl could go fix the helicopter.

Kind of a unique situation, we're mutually dependant on each other to do our job, so there's next to zero screwing with the techs. The better they work, the more I get to go flying so it's in my best interest to help them anyway I can and in return they give me a serviceable helicopter to take flying.

 

[backinblack]

Thanks for the info Navalsnipr.  8)

Bruce, I have to agree that the Artillery have a strong "men come first" attitude - I served with the Artillery, and they put me through my JLC and LLQ Courses in Shilo (1992/1993). 

Come to think of it, even in Cornwallis, the Course Senior and Squad Seniors were last to eat, etc.

Cheers    ;D

 

[backinblack]

Inch,

Sounds like good old all-around cooperation to me.  Makes perfect sense.  8)

 

[Cloud Cover]

What really makes this comparison between the AF, the Army and the Navy especially ironic is that when you get right down to it, a ship is a floating artillery battery with a small patch of an airfield.

 

[backinblack]

:warstory: Where's the shellscrapes?  lol

 

[x-grunt]

I am kind of disturbed by this thread. My belief is the junior ranks are always cared for first. I considered this the SOP for the entire CF. Could it be this thread is highlighting the selfishness of a few? I sure hope so, esp. as I am re-enlisting MARS and a) I expect better things of the service b) I don't want to be seen as "screwing around my own men" (as Inch put it) simply because I wear black instead of green or blue!

Many moons ago, I sailed on Destroyers out east. And I also pounded ground for a few years, so I have some experience of each element. It seemed that the "men first, nco's second, officers last" rule was normally as valid at sea as elsewhere. Could things have changed that much?

In fact, the only time I have seen a truly selfish acting officer was when when I was in an infantry platoon, this dickhead would do things like obtain some steaks and beer for himself and the Pl. NCO's. while the troops made do with IRP's, or he'd get a ride to "scout the terrain" while we walked. In short, an A$$hole, and everyone knew it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The Navy still has the RN mentality where it comes to RHIP. I have been on ships when at the end of the day the brow gets opened to officers first, then closed then opened to C&POs, closed again and then opened to MS and below. From when the Officers get to leave and MS and below get to leave you could be looking at 20-45 minutes. I have been on ships where pipes are made on the crew circuits during all hours of the day but rarely made on crew circuits. I have been on ships where you see awesome food being prepared in the galley but when it comes around to being served (MS and below) you end up getting stuff like corn beef hash. I have been on ships when you don't see a senior NCM or officer all day but during cleaning stations they magically appear walking all over the deck you just spent the last 20 minutes cleaning.The Army def treats their MCPL and below a lot better.

 

[Inch]

x-grunt,

The MARS "culture" is unlike anything else I've experienced since I joined the CF, both as a 17 year old reservist and a 20 year old regular officer. To put it bluntly, they eat their own, just think now how they'd treat their troops if they treat their peers like that.

When I took my Maritime Warfare basic course last fall, I was the only pilot, there were 2 AEREs and the rest were MARS and MARE. You could definitely tell the difference between the MARS and MAREs. The one example that sticks out in my head, our syndicate got chosen to present our plan for the mission we had (kinda like a war game scenario that every syndicate had to come up with a plan for). After our guy finished presenting, the other MARS officers started to pick it apart. I found it quite amusing since it was mostly our usage of air assets that they were picking apart, and besides me, our syndicate leader was a MH TACCO (each syndicate had someone who was staff at the warfare centre). So we utilized our air assets far more than any other syndicate and the other MARS officers weren't too happy that they hadn't thought of it first.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good MARS officers out there, but the rest of them are in competition with each other for a CO slot on one of the 12 FFHs which leads to a very poor situation for the NCMs.

 

[x-grunt]

The Navy still has the RN mentality where it comes to RHIP. I have been on ships when at the end of the day the brow gets opened to officers first, then closed then opened to C&POs, closed again and then opened to MS and below.

Now that I think of it, I remember similar treatment when in Assiniboine, but not when I was in Algonquin. Maybe I was just used to it by then, or I was too young and naive to know different.

 

[x-grunt]

x-grunt,

The MARS "culture" is unlike anything else I've experienced since I joined the CF, both as a 17 year old reservist and a 20 year old regular officer. To put it bluntly, they eat their own, just think now how they'd treat their troops if they treat their peers like that..

Buddy of mine flew Sea Kings off Huron for awhile. Gave me a great letter of reference for the CFRC. He's made some semi-neutral comments that now make me think he was trying to say the same thing.

I don't like it. Nope, don't like it at all. Thanks for the eye-opening thread.

 

[winchable]

Having been in or around (by proxy through my father) the navy for most of my life I'd like to jump in.

Inch is right about MARS officers for the most part, not all but many are in direct competition for CO spots so I've seen quite a few get so wrapped up in accelerating their own career (at the expense of others) they often forget that being an officer isn't about yourself and when not administrating and leading, their number one priority should be the welfare of their men.
It's all well and good to think about their own career (quite smart actually) but to transfer over that 'smart' selfishness when dealing with smaller tasks, like chow lines, is wrong.

As for RHIP, in the navy more than anywhere else you notice it.
Living accomodations, eating areas, general priviledge, there's a definite disparity between the two and I noticed that at 6 years old when I was visiting my dad on the Halifax so I can only imagine what the ranks think of it.
It's an outdated RN tradition, one can only imagine how bad it must be in the Royal Navy right now if we find ours unfair.
The navy more then any other force I'd wager, holds onto it's traditions so tightly and so dearly, perhaps because it's the oldest service-I'm not sure.

We tease the airforce pilots as being arrogant (how do you know when there's a pilot in the room?) but I would say that 70% of the other MARS officers were extremely arrogant.
I remember being 9 years old and listening to my dad and his MARE friends tear into the MARS officers for being snots, so it's nothing new.
That being said, just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you have to if you're an aspiring MARS officer and it's not ALL MARS officers by all means and the majority of CO's in the navy are MARS, it's the career-career if you know what I mean and by far one of the best and hardest to get into.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
We tease the airforce pilots as being arrogant (how do you know when there's a pilot in the room?)

.......WELL??

 

[aesop081]

We tease the airforce pilots as being arrogant (how do you know when there's a pilot in the room?)

How do you know a pilot is half way trough his conversation ?

When he says " enough about me , lets talk about my airplane" !!