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Retired general claims $72K in moving expenses (CTV)

milnews.ca said:
what triggered the scrutiny?  THAT's what might suggest whether bringing this to the public forum was done for transparency/conscience, or for political reasons.
Who triggered it may be a better question.  And for what purpose.  It could be a CAF member who doesn't like Leslie who brought it foward, or it could have been any one of a number of journalists, or those with any kind of agenda. 

 
milnews.ca said:
While the policy/rules are a public issue (like any other where government spends money in our name), and this one may be media-driven, what triggered the scrutiny?  THAT's what might suggest whether bringing this to the public forum was done for transparency/conscience, or for political reasons.


I don't think it was either "transparency/conscience, or for political reasons." My guess, as I said, above, is Gotcha journalism. Journalists compete for jobs and for column inches and for time on screen ~ it's their currency. "Gotcha!" works.

We know (at least we used to know, when I was still serving) that news outlets and individual journalists use the ATI system like a ocean drift net: there is no particular "target" but they will sell whatever they catch.
 
We have a number of retired Generals currently sitting in the House or the Senate.  Are we going to start looking at all of their final move expenses?  Are we going to start looking at any other member of Parliament who may have served over twenty years in the CAF and compare their final move expenses?  When will this nonsense stop? 

Just think how easy it would have been for a third party to request this information and release it, to have both the Liberals and Conservatives butting heads in the media, while they snicker in the corner and benefit from the fallout.  It would be a real coup for someone wanting to do away with the military and military budget.
 
What was the weight of Leslie's household goods ? In the US officers in the rank of COL- GEN are authorized 18,000 pounds.Majors/LTC get 17,500.So I was wondering about the cost of the move ? In the US family moves are paid for by the service as long as you stay within your allowance.Anything above that the individual is on the hook for.
 
Technoviking said:
Who triggered it may be a better question.  And for what purpose.  It could be a CAF member who doesn't like Leslie who brought it foward, or it could have been any one of a number of journalists, or those with any kind of agenda.
A clip on CTV last night showed a list of costs of all general/flag officer moves made within a certain time period, so it appears to have been the fruit of an ATI fishing expedition. Leslie's was by far bigger than the others, which were otherwise within the $20K-40K range (including one from Ottawa to Italy). Ottawa to Ottawa for $72K is certainly eyebrow-raising by comparison, but I would guess the cost of the agent commissions on a relatively expensive house is the explanation.
 
Occam said:
I was posted to Ottawa in 2008.  We looked at about 30 houses on our HHT, and on the second to last day we put offers in on two of the tolerable homes that were close to public transit, in decent neighbourhoods, in decent condition, and within our price range - knowing that we're going to have to sell the place again in a few years.  We had our offer accepted on one of the two homes, so the move was on.

Fast forward three years to 2011.  I get an offer for the Public Service, put in my release, and the two year clock starts ticking for my release move.  While the house that I chose in 2008 was optimal for the CF in that I could resell it fairly easily, it wasn't optimal for me in that we'd already outgrown it in three years and we wouldn't have touched the place if we were looking for a long term "we're in this house until we get put in a retirement villa" house.

So, I have no reservations about taking a local move.  The CF can't have it both ways.  I can pick out a house on a HHT which is 100% what I want, and then cause no end of administrative burden because I can't sell it at the end of my posting.  Or I can pick out a house that suits the need for the duration of the posting, and keep the CF happy because I don't cause all sorts of grief every time I get posted.  If I choose the latter, then the CF had better be prepared to accommodate my local retirement move to a home that I want, not a home that works out nicely for the CF and I'm miserable as hell in it.

I fully agree with Occam:

There are all sorts of legitimate reasons for a member to make a final move within the very city he/she is posted to  on final posting and there are no valid reasons to deprive such member of the benefit just because he/she is not moving from one end of the country to another. The sole fact that residence during final posting likely was selected based on the requirement of working at a DND facility while the final move is to a house suited to one's retirement plans is sufficient to cover all sorts of reasons.

In the present case, Gen. Leslie's wish to move to a smaller house in retirement is perfectly legitimate.

BTW, I'm not convinced that this was necessarily a CPC job. Gen. Leslie certainly had enemies in the DND bureaucracy that may not wish to ever see him as MND. Pure speculation on my part here, but I don't think it is a possibility to be discounted offhand.

P.S.: T6: we don't have weight rules based on rank.

 
We are being out PR'd again. Story after irrelevant story is trying to keep the issues with traction out of the media. Someone knows that certain ways vets are being treated and changes to pensions to soldiers would kill the Cons in the next election. If we don't get a few good issues and reduce them to media soundbites we will be screwed over. Expect to be portrayed as entitled welfare moochers until the next election.

The centres in Sydney, Corner Brook and Saskatoon are hard sells to me for closure, but the 900 laid off VAC workers is a bigger issue. The loss of our records to an American lowest bidder company. The two tiers of veterans pre and post 2005. The miniscule payouts under the NVC. The fact that priority hiring and reeducation are primarily public relations operations. Just saying "Living Charter" makes my blood boil. We have been double crossed by the present government. A good public shaming is probably the only way to get these things reopened. They already expect this and are getting out in front of it.
 
Nemo888 said:
We are being out PR'd again. Story after irrelevant story is trying to keep the issues with traction out of the media.
Yep, rather than see this as one in a series of stories putting the CPC in a poor light, it's all about you; "they" went after Leslie as a personal strategy to attack your hobby-horse. 

      :brickwall:



Regardless of the CPC's actual role, we've seen 'the conspirators' spin it that way.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:
 
tomahawk6 said:
What was the weight of Leslie's household goods ? In the US officers in the rank of COL- GEN are authorized 18,000 pounds.Majors/LTC get 17,500.So I was wondering about the cost of the move ? In the US family moves are paid for by the service as long as you stay within your allowance.Anything above that the individual is on the hook for.

There is a Maximum weight of 20,000lbs on any domestic move (overseas moves are a lower weight allowance), anything over the 20K is paid for by the member. The vast majority of households are well below the 20K.
 
Just watch for a pattern. Calls to the media are planned, not random events like the weather. This is well timed to take the closures out of the headlines.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I don't think it was either "transparency/conscience, or for political reasons." My guess, as I said, above, is Gotcha journalism. Journalists compete for jobs and for column inches and for time on screen ~ it's their currency. "Gotcha!" works.
True.

hamiltongs said:
A clip on CTV last night showed a list of costs of all general/flag officer moves made within a certain time period, so it appears to have been the fruit of an ATI fishing expedition. Leslie's was by far bigger than the others, which were otherwise within the $20K-40K range (including one from Ottawa to Italy). Ottawa to Ottawa for $72K is certainly eyebrow-raising by comparison, but I would guess the cost of the agent commissions on a relatively expensive house is the explanation.
E.R. Campbell said:
We know (at least we used to know, when I was still serving) that news outlets and individual journalists use the ATI system like a ocean drift net: there is no particular "target" but they will sell whatever they catch.
Since this appears to have been based on an ATI request (the first version of the story I read didn't mention ATI), then the reporter/researcher had their eyes drawn to the most prominent name, making me less suspicious of a "partisan" trigger (the same way, say, someone giving one reporter one file saying, "lookit this").
 
Gramps said:
There is a Maximum weight of 20,000lbs on any domestic move (overseas moves are a lower weight allowance), anything over the 20K is paid for by the member. The vast majority of households are well below the 20K.

The US does the same for overseas assignments.US military personnel overseas live in government quarters which have government furniture,which makes moves simpler.
 
Gramps said:
There is a Maximum weight of 20,000lbs on any domestic move (overseas moves are a lower weight allowance), anything over the 20K is paid for by the member. The vast majority of households are well below the 20K.

Actually the 20K lbs limit applies to overseas moves as well in that the total of all your HG&E (i.e. that which goes overseas PLUS that which goes into long term storage in Canada) can be no more than 20K lbs at public expenses (i.e. you pay the additional charges if you're over).  What you're allowed to ship overseas depends on whether you're going into furnished or unfurnished accomodation (i.e. you're allowed to ship more if you go into unfurnished accomodation.

A few other things to consider in this debate:

1)  The idea that some have mentioned that the final move on release is designed to get you back to your place of recrutiment is only true if you have less than ten years of service.  Ten years is the dividing line.  After that, you become entitled (with some exceptions) to a move anywhere in Canada you want (including across the street).  I would argue that after many years of service many CF members may no longer have any connection whatsoever with the place where they signed (I know I don't).  So limiting us to a move back to our place of recruitment doesn't make a lot of sense.

2)  As others have said, the house which you found suitable for your last posting may not be suitable for retirement.  To give myself as an example again, my wife and I expect to become empty-nesters about the same time that I expect to retire.  I will no longer need a four-bedroom house, but I will likely still want to stay in the same vicinity.  If the government is willing to move me across the country, why can't I simply move down the street and actually save the taxpayer some money?

3)  BGRS does not keep the relocation files.  Once they are closed, they are sent to DND and DND holds them in accordance with government archival policy.  Any ATI for this information would be dealt with by DND.  As a private company, BGRS would not be subject to an ATI anyway.

4)  Relocation claims are subject to audit by DND (in fact, there is a minimum spot sampling of them done every year).  LGen Leslie's claim is no doubt being audited as we speak (if this has not already been done) and if he has been overpaid or underpaid, adjustments will be made.  There is a whole team of people who do this on a constant basis and they subject every claim to scrutiny in accordance with IRP policy/TB direction.  There are no favourites and the same policies apply to everyone, regardless of rank.

And on a completely different note, there is no "clawback" on our pensions when CPP kicks in.  The original intent of the CFSA was that no one would be able to draw more than a 70% of there best five years salary as a pension, including CPP.  However, when the CFSA was set up, it was recognized that most people would start drawing their CFSA pensions at least 10 years prior to CPP starting, so a "bridge" was inserted to fill that gap.  Initially, it was actually covered by a separate piece of legislation (the Supplementary Retirement Benefits Act - SRBA) and was accounted for separately on our pay accounts.  For whatever reason, the CFSA and SRBA were amalgamated at one point and granularity was lost.  Nevertheless, the intent remained the same - a maximum total benefit of 70%.  The long and short of it is that nothing is clawed back at age 65, but rather the bridge is dismantled and replaced by CPP.  It is important to note that this is what we have paid for.  If we were to continue to draw the CFSA pension at the previous rate as well as CPP, we would have to pay higher premiums from the get go (and let's not get into the fact that our premiums are going up anyway, because the cause of that is different yet again and is a different topic of discussion).
 
I may regret this, but ....
Nemo888 said:
Just watch for a pattern. Calls to the media are planned, not random events like the weather. This is well timed to take the closures out of the headlines.
I'm as suspicious as the next guy re:  political/personal gain intent behind media leaks, but this one appears to be pulled from an ATI trawl, not the "anonymous" envelope method.
Journeyman said:
Oh, we're seeing a pattern.  :stars:
:nod:
 
hamiltongs said:
A clip on CTV last night showed a list of costs of all general/flag officer moves made within a certain time period, so it appears to have been the fruit of an ATI fishing expedition. Leslie's was by far bigger than the others, which were otherwise within the $20K-40K range (including one from Ottawa to Italy). Ottawa to Ottawa for $72K is certainly eyebrow-raising by comparison, but I would guess the cost of the agent commissions on a relatively expensive house is the explanation.

Now I think we're getting somewhere. This sort of information should have been all put out in the first place, but it then wouldn't have been a "gotcha" story. They're trying to drag this out for a few headlines.
 
PuckChaser said:
Now I think we're getting somewhere. This sort of information should have been all put out in the first place, but it then wouldn't have been a "gotcha" story. They're trying to drag this out for a few headlines.

Interesting that the "MSM" (whom we all know are the evil willing tools of the "Liberals" and the "liberals",) would attack a Liberal party hopeful, thereby apparently handing a nice smelly pile of dirt for the Tory catapult to launch via the MND's question.

It will be fun to watch the CPC, who have banked so much on their "pro-military" stance, stick handle this between the icebergs of their voter base, their fiscal prudence agenda, and their professed affection for the CF, and still get any fires put out before the election.

What won't be fun is watching what is now almost certainly going to happen to CAF relocation benefits, which are the same at least in principle and intent for a Cpl and his family as they are for LGen Leslie. A nasty big rich general with Liberal tendencies makes a nice stalking horse that everyone can relate to hating, but the collateral damage radius may be much wider.

Aaah, Canadian politics. Never changes. Why no serving soldier should ever hitch their cart to one political party's wagon: better to regard them all with healthy skepticism. The word "expediency" comes to mind, for some reason.
 
I think this story was just too juicy to ignore. Rich general pulls boondoggle on taxpayers in move from one ritzy Ottawa neighbourhood to another. It also fits into the Ottawa insiders milk the system theme. Never mind the facts; the story speaks for itself.

I also fear what could happen to the benefit if this really gets messy, or if the CPC sees some political points to score to the detriment of Leslie . . . and to all the service members who had planned to relocate after release.
 
His move costs more than most other moves in the same area? And his family works in real estate in Ottawa?

Yikes. It is possible that it's all above board, even likely, but the optics. Gets worse before it gets better.
 
Container said:
His move costs more than most other moves in the same area? And his family works in real estate in Ottawa?

Yikes. It is possible that it's all above board, even likely, but the optics. Gets worse before it gets better.

A million dollar home = 50K in real estate fees alone. Then you have lawyer fees etc.

Agent in the family or not, that real-estate agent's fees would be their INCOME (and is taxable).
 
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