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Respect our values or Leave

YZT580

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And all that anecdotal evidence is worth, precisely, two thirds of five eighths of bugger all.

I too know PhDs who have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time. But, equally, I know some PhDs who are very good at damned near everything: their specialties, sports, auto repair, home carpentry, hunting and fishing and so so. Additionally, I know some high school dropouts and high school graduates who are inept and stupid, one or two of them were senior NCOs in the Army who no one would trust with a hammer and nail.

And my anecdotal evidence is equally meaningless.

Actually, the anecdotal evidence provides an insight into the issue.  It demonstrates that the requirements are balanced.  Both PhDs and skilled/semi-skilled individuals are required to ensure prosperity.  The military requires both trained pilots to perform missions and a chap with the necessary mechanical aptitude to change a tire.  Industry has the same dual requirements.  We make a serious mistake if we focus on one to the detriment of the other.  We tend to show disdain for the chap who provides the muscle: how many MPs or church deacons for that matter have worked in a factory?  We tend to select the educated elite instead of the experienced craftsman. 
 

Journeyman

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YZT580 said:
The military requires both trained pilots to perform missions and a chap with the necessary mechanical aptitude to change a tire
.....and someone lacking faith in both, so that jumping out the back seems the rational option  ;D
 

Dennis Ruhl

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JackD said:
My brother went back to university in the middle 90's at age 40 something. He obtained degrees with honours in history and English.  He could not afford the assigned textbooks  and this was pre-Internet.  He used as his main texts  some second-hand  1950's high school grammar books/literature books, and a history book  originally written for elementary pupils dated 1962. In a sense, what it comes down to is the individual: are they learned despite the system or because of the system? More people in Canada are learned because of the system.

Someone in his 40s is not majoring in social life.  Older students often do well because they actually go to class, read the material, and hand in assignments without being hung-over or dead tired. 

Part of the problem is that while they don't create any more smart people than they ever did, they graduate many times the students.  Something has to give.

 

a_majoor

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E.R. Campbell said:
We, the entire "West" need more and more better educated people, but we also need more of the fiscally prudent 'values' of those prairie farmers and small town, independent businessmen.

Of course, those are not the values of urbanites in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver, or seasonal workers in the Maritimes, or pur laine Quebecois. One of the issues with the thesis of "Fearful Symmetry" suggests the hard work ethic of the Scottish settlers is the "true" Canadian value. While there are a lot of virtues in those values, I would suggest they form part of the matrix of values that under gridded Canada until the 1960's.

This argument has been played out before on this forum, we need to know just what are "Canadian values" before any sort of Civic Nationalism can be implimented.
 

Antoine

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we need to know just what are "Canadian values" before any sort of Civic Nationalism can be implimented.

You will find all these in the new citizenship guide recently released.  ;)
 

a_majoor

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Antoine said:
You will find all these in the new citizenship guide recently released.  ;)

Plenty of followers of the LPT (Liberal Party of Toronto) would beg to differ. I would think several times before taking a pam written by a bunch of bureaucrats at face value, even though I will say there are a few agreeable things in it.

Remember Civic Nationalism is an attempt to fuse values into an entire culture, the vast array of patriotic songs, festivals and holidays in the United States (and the ever present "Old Glory") are all deliberate constructs dating to the period between the Cival War and the @1920's created to indoctrinate and assimilate people into American citizens.
 

Antoine

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I agree with you.

My post was more on the sarcasm notes as I was fed up to hear today and yesterday in many medias that the new guide is going to help in the "magic" integration of immigrants by helping them to understand our core values from my limited understanding of what I have heard (not a sarcasm !).
 

ModlrMike

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I think a great deal of it has to do with hyphenated Canadians who lean too far to the left of the hyphen. Let me explain: I'm British born, and proud to be so, but I identify as Canadian, not British-Canadian. I maintain my heritage in my household and participate in community events, but I'm still Canadian first. I'm not suggesting that assimilation is the way forward, but I think that we as a society need to identify as Canadian first, and whatever else second. I get the sense sometimes that as a nation we're like a bus with 8000 steering wheels and each driver wants to go in a different direction.
 

zipperhead_cop

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I think ModlrMike is bang on.  Canada first.  However, since the Charter guarantees that nobody has to respect anyone or anything, we now have a disintegrating society of individuals.  Oh wait, a "mosaic". 

Thucydides said:
Remember Civic Nationalism is an attempt to fuse values into an entire culture, the vast array of patriotic songs, festivals and holidays in the United States (and the ever present "Old Glory") are all deliberate constructs dating to the period between the Cival War and the @1920's created to indoctrinate and assimilate people into American citizens.

And what is wrong with that?  I can't think that anyone can argue that our way (vis-a-vis Britain) is better.  I've never seen anyone in the United States sit through a national anthem but it sure to hell happens here often enough.  The States may have their flaws and need to work on some things, but at least they know what it means to be American.  Can anyone say what it means to be Canadian?  Other than "we sure ain't American".  I don't see how being super accommodating, being hyper-tolerant, being the proverbial "nice guys" is getting us anywhere other than having our societal fabric trampled by people who have not come here to enjoy the life our country could provide, but rather to import their own brand of intolerance, prejudice, religious zealotry and xenophobia and foist it upon their immediate surroundings?  There are a great many people that come into our good country with the full knowledge that we are a bunch of suckers and they are going to get away with murder.  Literally sometimes.  Since our birth rate demographics are not going to bear out the preservation of our culture much past 30 odd years from now, perhaps we should get a grip on what sort of Canada we want to be part of. 
 

The Bread Guy

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I've been looking through paperwork for a home sale, when I came across a certificate from the IODE which my dad received on becoming a Canadian citizen in 1959.  I'm going to share the text to offer a reference point for discussion down the line (capitalization as it appears on the certificate):

Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire
I.O.D.E.
Present Greetings
To you (name)
on the occasion of your becoming
A Candian Citizen, a Commonwealth Citizen,
and a British Subject
At Port Arthur, Ontario
on December 2, 1959.

You are now admitted to share, with us,
all the ancient liberties of the British peoples.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY,
FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION, FREE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT
insofar as these great privileges are not endangered by abuse.
But these GREAT RIGHTS are built upon DUTIES binding us as CITIZENS.

FEAR and LOVE OF GOD:  Our laws do not suffer blasphemy.
LOYALTY TO HER MAJESTY, THE QUEEN:  To her Realm of Canada, to Her Commonwealth, and to Her Empire - our laws do not suffer sedition.
RESPECT FOR LAW AND ORDER:  Weapons are unnecessary.  Our Courts provide for the righting of wrongs.
RESPECT FOR OUR SYSTEMS OF EDUCATION AND GOVERNMENT:  Our free and democratic systems of government provides for changes by constitutional means.
THE CASTING OFF OF OLD HATREDS:  Canada has set her feet upon the paths of peace, at home and among the nations of the world.

WE WELCOME YOU TO SHARE WITH US AND TO PROTECT, EVEN TO THE DEATH,
THESE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES.

Always Remember Your Oath of Allegiance.
God Save the Queen.
 

mariomike

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"THE CASTING OFF OF OLD HATREDS:  Canada has set her feet upon the paths of peace, at home and among the nations of the world."

50 years later, after two bloody World Wars, and how far have we come?
I don't know if your Dad is still with us, but thank you for sharing that document. I enjoyed reading it.
 

Kirkhill

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That is a country I recognize Tony - unfortunately only in the rear-view mirror.

A couple of interesting points of coincidence - when I graduated from high school in Peterborough, ON, the IODE granted me a cash award for placing well in history and also gave me two history books.  One of them was a history of Thunder Bay - Port Arthur, Fort William.

The longer you live the more coincidences you encounter.
 

a_majoor

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zipperhead_cop said:
Since our birth rate demographics are not going to bear out the preservation of our culture much past 30 odd years from now, perhaps we should get a grip on what sort of Canada we want to be part of.

Fear not. The United States is still growing in real terms (with a projected population mid century of 500 to 550 million), and I suspect they will re emerge as the sole superpower in the post 2020 world as first Russia, then the EU and finally China and the Islamic world undergo demographic crashes. (Canada and Japan will  have crashed in the mid 2020's). The only other growing superpower in the mid century will be India, so the Anglosphere will dominate the world after all.

Young Americans (from large "Red State" families) will immigrate to Canada starting in the late 2020's, seeking the high wages Canadian business will have to offer in order to get workers, and of course importing their values and beliefs as well. They will have the numbers and economic clout to change Canadian institutions, which will no doubt enrage elderly Dippers and Liberals in their Toronto and Vancouver enclaves, and probably puzzle and confound the rest of us as well.
 

zipperhead_cop

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Tony, thanks for that awesome piece of history.  Sad how badly off of a simple path we strayed.  Amazing how a so-called "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" could annihilate such a simply stated and well put document. 

Thucydides, that is some cold consolation you are offering!  :-\  Would  it not be preferable to maybe try to drum something that resembles common sense into the sheeple and try to turn things around now?  Hoping for something over a decade from now seems rather faint hope, especially when things are heading south at full afterburner.
 

mariomike

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zipperhead_cop said:
Would  it not be preferable to maybe try to drum something that resembles common sense into the sheeple and try to turn things around now?

I think that ship has already sailed. Sheeple these days are likely to look upon a person talking common sense as some kind of Klansman.

[/quote]
Hoping for something over a decade from now seems rather faint hope, especially when things are heading south at full afterburner.
[/quote]
;D Ain't that the truth!

 

a_majoor

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I'm afraid the Canadian Republic is the project not of the next decade, but the next generation. While we will be suffering from a demographic bust in the 2020's, the resurgent United States will only just be starting their population "surge", and American workers will move into Canada in full force in the 2040's (although there will be people coming in long before).

Changing the attitudes of the sheeple will also take a generation. Think of this like Afghanistan. Do you expect the attiudes of Afghans to change in the next few years? We are creating conditions that will allow the next generation of Afghans to change their culture, we need to do the same here.

 

zipperhead_cop

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I suppose.  But Afghanistan can be forgiven its ignorance as a result of decades of war, backward tribal dynamics and no discernible education system.  What is our excuse?  PET had a vision of how to destroy a country and everyone got sucked in? 
 

mariomike

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zipperhead_cop said:
PET had a vision of how to destroy a country and everyone got sucked in?

Not all of us were. But, what could we do about it? Most of us were just trying to earn a living and put our kids through school.
 

The Bread Guy

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Here's how they're approaching things - from Deutsche Welle (also note Ms. Boehmer's title):
Germany plans to have immigrants sign "integration contracts" that would oblige foreigners seeking to live in the country to avow certain values, such as freedom of speech and equal rights for women.

German Integration Commissioner Maria Boehmer has said that she wants to move on plans to have new immigrants sign a contract with the state. Such a move, she argues, would make integration efforts more binding.

Boehmer said the contracts would explain what services and assistance were available to new immigrants, and at the same time would clarify "what we expect from them."

"Anyone who wants to live here and work here in the long term, has to say 'yes' to our country," Boehmer said. "This includes knowing how to speak our language, but also the willingness to participate in our society."

Commissioner wants action soon

Immigrants would have to avow belief in values such as freedom of expression and equal rights for women.

Boehmer said she aimed to institute the contracts during the current legislative period....

A bit more from the BBC.
 

GAP

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Beyond the pale on the veil

Should Canadian colleges be more tolerant of Islamic fundamentalism than Cairo's universities?
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There should be a limit to accommodating religious minorities, and that limit has been reached. An Egyptian-born woman wearing a niqab – the veil that hides the face except for the eyes – was expelled from a French-language class for immigrants in Montreal after all conceivable efforts had been made to try to accommodate her beliefs.

Naima Ahmed, a 29-year-old pharmacist and mother of three, reportedly refused to lift her veil to reveal her mouth when pronouncing words, something that's part of language instruction. She demanded to sit at the back of the room, with her back to the other students, because three males were in the class. Later, she insisted the men move even farther away from her.

For one-on-one exercises, the woman first agreed to retreat to a corner with the female instructor so she could remove part of her veil but then changed her mind when she couldn't be guaranteed that the instructor responsible for the next segment would be a woman. Another part of the course calls for students to sit around a U-shaped table and converse; the woman refused to participate because she couldn't tolerate the male students looking her in the eyes. (Ms. Ahmed has denied the allegations that she refused to work with men.)

These frictions – which exasperated the other students and disturbed the atmosphere of the class – went on for three months until the college, CEGEP de Saint-Laurent, backed by Quebec's Immigration Ministry (which finances the language classes), gave her an ultimatum: Take off the veil or quit the class. She quit, then filed a human-rights complaint against the province.

There's been a great deal of discussion in Quebec about the right to wear a veil in public institutions. The consensus among human-rights defenders is that the Islamic scarf that covers only the hair should be allowed everywhere, including in the civil service. But there's a growing school of thought, influenced by France's rigid definition of secularism, that wants to forbid civil servants who deal with the public from covering their hair – a prohibition that would certainly be intolerable in a North American pluralist society and one that would be quickly struck down by the courts. The face-covering veil, however, is another question, if only because it prevents normal human contact. Would a school allow a male student to wear a mask to hide his face?

There's also the question of security. A few weeks ago in France, two men entered a bank wearing burkas. The burka is even less revealing than the niqab because the eyes are hidden behind a fabric grill. A bank employee, assuming the two potential clients were women, let them in. But the duo had guns under their robes and held up the bank.

In Quebec, most agreed with the decision to expel the niqab-wearing woman, including constitutional lawyer Julius Grey, who has defended the right of inmates to smoke in prison and the right of Sikh students to wear ceremonial daggers in class. “Accommodation should not lead to separation,” he said.

Yolande Geadah, an Egyptian-born writer, said: “There is no possible compromise with people with such inflexible attitudes.” Raheel Raza, a Pakistani-born Muslim women's rights activist, said: “When we come to Canada, we're not coming to the Islamic Republic of Canada.”

The irony is that, last fall, Egypt's top Islamic cleric said students and teachers at Cairo's Al-Azhar University would not be allowed to wear face veils in classrooms and dorms on the grounds they had “nothing to do with Islam.” The education ministry later barred the niqab during exams, to prevent students from sending others to take the tests. Although an Egyptian court subsequently ordered a stay on the Al-Azhar ban and overturned the education ministry's decision, we have to ask ourselves: Should Canadian colleges be more tolerant of Islamic fundamentalism than Cairo's universities?
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