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Respect for Women

Eye In The Sky said:
Sorry but I don't think the 'realities of being a Pte' have changed as much as you think.

One thing that hasn't changed is the function of leadership.
Totally agree. We constantly tell all ranks that we need to speak up when something is wrong but then nail them to the floor if they question a higher rank. The only difference now is that 20 years ago the punishment would have hurt more but would have been informal. Now it ends up being formal in the manner of 5bs or bad PERs.

As a former reservist and having served as Reg force support at a reserve unit in the CBI arms, a reserve pte is less likely to speak up than a regular force private.  For one, he has less than 2 years in. He also spends very little time around these people, and the military in general, so is less likely to feel comfortable in the presence of Snr NCOs . Snr NCOs at a reserve regiment are often very in trenched in the unit with friendships with all the key players.

The reg force person has is likely to have more time in (physically in the environment if not from enrolment),  and  knows that he will still get paid even if he says something to or about said NCO. That is often not the case in the MO.


Edit: I forgot to add why I feel EITS is correct and went off on a tangent. Basically, rank is right 99% of the time in the CF. If have lost arguments with multiple references because I was out ranked.  I have been ordered to do things contrary to policy because I was out ranked. I have fought that mentality and it has hurt my career. I still tell people higher up than me when they are wrong but now I just CYA and let it go because rank is right and Ottawa can't help me if my CoC gives me a bad PER or loads another person on a course I want. Ptes aren't stupid, they see the guys who keep their mouth shut and never disagree get ahead.
 
So I was told that this is a discussion by a poster.  So let's discuss:

1. It is not the responsibility of the spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/etc of a CAF member to speak up at a gathering that involves CAF members, family, public, etc.  You can discuss this all you want, but I invite you to see point 3 below.

2. It is not the responsibility of a Private (I'll add that I was one at a Reserve unit in a previous lifetime, so I've been on both sides of the coin and the reality is that Privates do not feel even remotely comfortable questioning a Snr NCO) to tell a Snr NCO that he is crossing the line of respect, harassment, etc.  It does not matter to me what you call it, I don't care.  Also, Op HONOUR doesn't create anything new in terms of laws, but it does clarify things for those people that frankly have had their head in their asses in regards to how to show respect (up and down the chain of command and overall in general).  As per 1 above, you can discuss this all you want, but I invite you to see point 3 below.

3. It was the responsibility of the senior person in this whole episode to hold himself to a higher standard.  If this issue was brought to my attention, do you think that I'm going to call the spouse/girlfriend and ask her "why didn't you speak up"?  Do you think that I'm going to ask the Pte why he didn't speak up?  Not a snowball's chance in hell.  Does that even matter as the person that started this whole episode was a drunk Snr NCO making inappropriate comments?

4. What I would do is hold the Sgt, i.e. the Senior Non-commissioned Officer accountable, as he/she is supposed to be providing an example to the junior personnel (to start not being piss drunk in public), he/she is the person that I would expect to be enforcing the CDS' intent, and he/she damn well knows what is right and what is wrong.  If he/she doesn't, then I don't need that Snr NCO in my unit and the CAF does not need that member as well.

5. What's amazing is that Op Honour is nothing new people.  Did you not already know that you respect women?  Did you know not already know that you respect men?  Did you not already know that you don't sexually assault someone?  Come on, this is nothing new.  We all know what is right and wrong.
 
So Scoobs,

What you are failing to acknowledge in your point 3, is it did happen, even though it should not?

Some options to deal with it:

a) A soldier tells another superior that the Sgt is/was being a drunken ass;
b) A soldier tells the Sgt he is/was being an ass;
c) Young lady present tells boyfriend that his Sgt is being an ass and ask if they could step away;
d) Young lady or boyfriend introduces her/self to the Sgt;
e) Young lady steps aside hoping her boyfriend will follow her lead;
f) Young lady tells Sgt she takes offense to his statements; or
g) No one does anything and the episode repeats itself.

IMHO through Op Honour directives, the CDS
- directs/hopes that one day these incidents will no longer happen,
-encourages those who are subjected to them today to do something,
- directs that the chain of command should do everything to prevent them from happening including informing and discussing the topic,
- reminds the chain of command to investigate complaints, and
- states that a complainant should not face repercussions when informing someone that it is or did happen.
 
So, somebody cannot resist the temtation to get shitfaced in a social setting with guests around? Not only that, but when he gets shitfaced he becomes innapropriate?  Sounds like he has a drinking problem.  There are times and places to blow steam off and drink your face off if you feel like it. In a social gathering like the one from Rememberance Day?  I don't think so.  It discredits himself, his unit and the CAF as a whole.
 
PuckChaser said:
Problem is, we don't know the other side of the story, nor the exact words used. The individual making the statements could have meant something completely different, but used the wrong words, which boils down to attempting to solve it at the lowest level. If you flipped the gender, and a female Sgt was talking about men in the same way, would she have been offended? Or laughing it up as well?

I think at this point, before we do the 'guilty until proven innocent' road trip, I think it is important to re-emphasize on of the most important points made so far that got lost along the way.

We have one side of the story, and at this point it seems 'we' are proceeding as IF it is accurate.  I am not saying it isn't, I am saying we can't say if it is/is not.

As long as we proceed with the "this happened as written" road as more of a 'hypothetical' than 'factual';  we give people in this country who kill people and the like the "guilty until proven innocent' benefit of the doubt so it shouldn't be a far stretch in this case (IMO).

:2c:
 
I suspect the Snr NCO was doing one or both of two things. Showing off his worldly view of things to the new plugs and/or unintentional venting about how much he has effed up his own life and needs to blame others.

My advice to the young Pte and GF is to carefully think about everything that the Snr NCO said and do the opposite. He has given them valuable advice in a back handed way. Life offers you lessons in many forms, this was one of them. Now for good relationship advice. Treat each other with respect and don’t take each other for granted, never win an argument if the price of winning is to hurt your loved one. Talk to people who have long term relationships (20-50 years) and learn from them. 
 
So, let me get this straight?  We're apparently "discussing" this and when I discuss it, the main focus of some people here is to state, "let's not forget that we need to determine IF this actually happened"?  Really, I thought that we were discussing this, I didn't realize that this was a summary trial or court martial.  If it was, obviously the Sgt would be spoken to, along with witnesses of the events.  Then the weight of the evidence would be considered by the Presiding Officer and a finding of guilt or innocence would be made.  Then mitigating circumstances would be discussed by the Assisting Officer prior to sentencing.  So why don't we all get past the question of IF and discuss what you think is appropriate for how a Snr NCO should behave.

Simian, you're still not getting it as judged by your insistence that you think that a young Reserve Pte will actually do most of what you suggest.  As well, you seem to focus only on what the Pte or his girlfriend could do.  Why don't you comment on the "alleged" behaviour of the Sgt, i.e. the Snr NCO who should have known better that his behaviour was unacceptable?  Why don't you comment on the Sgt's friends, who are also Snr NCOs, not pulling the Sgt away and sending him home before his stepped on his _ _ _ _ ?  My point is that your sole focus is on what the young Pte or his girlfriend could have done vice the real issue here, that the Snr NCO failed that day.

For those who still insist on, "we should remember that it is only one side of the story here", place the word "IF" in front of my words in my previous comments and they still all apply.

One final point, I've said what I believe has been needed to be said, so please note that this will be my last point on this subject.
 
That was directed at me; my post wasn't directed at you but in general, else I would have quoted something from you.  I was just trying to remind everyone we are basing stuff on a 1 sided story...and if the discussion is based on a "if we accept the story as factual".  No harm intended.  Sometimes threads take on a life of their own and we lose sight of a few things.  ;D
 
Scoobs et al,

You and others seem to want to focus on what the Sgt and his peers should have/not done.  If they had acted appropriately we would not be having this discussion. Since the Sgt and his peers did not post on here, I can't really offer them advice.  You and I both know what the Sgt did is/was wrong.  What his peers did/did not do - is also wrong! 

Let's all learn from the situation - the OP described her view of the events and she has received advice and a wealth of discussion.  Perhaps she received some PMs from others who have discretely provided her additional advice from a "woman's perspective".

I, too, will step away!
 
infanteerGF said:
Sorry, this is going to be a bit of a rant but I want to know if any other women have had this problem.

Yesterday (Remembrance Day) I was the sober driver for my boyfriend. None of the other girlfriends/fiances/wives of his friend group showed up at the mess but I didn't mind because his friends are nice to me and I felt somewhat included. That is until some higher ranked guys came over to give their drunken "life advice" to the privates (my bf being one of them). Most of their talks were random military things I personally don't care much for, but there was also the odd rant about significant others. One sergeant basically went on about how women are replaceable, breakups/divorce are inevitable, etc. and to not let them be the reason for not going on tour if the opportunity arises. He didn't acknowledge my presence and basically made me feel dehumanized. Meanwhile, the boys were just eating this up and laughing. Another guy (forget his rank) was complaining about how his wife would ruin his trip to Amsterdam if he brought her because he wants to go see the Red Light District (which he mentioned he'd already seen).

I guess what I'm asking is have any other women been treated this way? Like an expendable accessory for these men to have next to them and that's it.

I've sort of talked with my bf, and he assures me he doesn't feel this way, but he didn't defend me last night either. I'm worried that the opinions and "advice" of the higher ranks will get to him. We've talked about the possibly of getting married, but I'm kind of worried about our future now.

GAHH.... im sorry that happened love.. I've heard that us girlfriends are basically non existent in the eyes of the military but to hear that even wives are being disrespected is crazy.

Thats just one miserable mans opinion. Your man loves you and if he's a good one he'll just shrug it off..

Stay Strong!

-Sab
 
Jarnhamar said:
Make a public facebook post talking about how wimpy he looked compared to the other soldiers at remembrance day and see how he feel's about it.

This is an extremely immature thing to do. I am not looking to humiliate by BF in any way. I was simply wondering if the Sgt's behaviour was normal as this was the first military event I attended alongside my BF.
 
Simian Turner said:
I have to ask, if he did not acknowledge your presence - you could made your presence known and taken the opportunity to speak up and "humanize" yourself?  You came on hear to "rant", why didn't you speak up there when you had the chance?

Being that it was my first time attending a military event alongside my BF, surrounded by his peers and superiors, I did not feel like it was my place to say anything because I don't know all of the rules yet and didn't want to embarrass my BF or get him in trouble.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
OMG!!  I'm so offended by the above statements............seriously, THIS is "dehumanizing"?  Jesus wept......

Just because you switched the gender in my statements does not make me feel any different. Had a female officer been saying these things I still wouldn't have thought highly of them.
 
Flavus101 said:
There are a lot of aspects at play here, one of them being that the boyfriend most likely just wanted to fit in with the group and not ostracize himself.

Perhaps the best course of action would have been for the GF to signal to the BF that she would like to remove themselves from the conversation and then when all parties were sober she could have explained to the BF exactly what made her uncomfortable.

He already fit into the group at the table (except maybe the Sgt that walked over) because they were all privates he'd become quite close with. Had I asked him to leave, it would've just made things more awkward for me because then I'd be the reason he left all of his friends for seemingly no reason.
 
PuckChaser said:
Problem is, we don't know the other side of the story, nor the exact words used. The individual making the statements could have meant something completely different, but used the wrong words, which boils down to attempting to solve it at the lowest level. If you flipped the gender, and a female Sgt was talking about men in the same way, would she have been offended? Or laughing it up as well?

The Sgt said "Unless she's a lingerie model, she's replaceable. And if you're the kind of guy who can get a lingerie model, you can probably get another one anyways." So I'm pretty sure he was saying that SOs are replaceable.

Had it been a female Sgt, I wouldn't have been personally offended as much, but I still wouldn't agree with her.
 
Good2Golf said:
What was the Sgt doing in the JRs?

A few of them would filter in and out to talk and tell stories or buy other guys some drinks in celebration.
 
Sorry for all of the late replies, I'm new here and didn't know I had to manually turn on notifications for posts.
 
infanteerGF said:
Had it been a female Sgt, I wouldn't have been personally offended as much, but I still wouldn't agree with her.

Simple question for you, why?
 
Flavus101 said:
Simple question for you, why?

Well I wouldn't classify myself as a boyfriend or husband and so that's why it wouldn't be as personal, but I still don't agree that significant others are easily replaceable.
 
Wow, three pages and still going strong.  :facepalm:

The Sgt was a dick, plain and simple -- being a male or female dick is irrelevant.  Made worse by being a dick in someone else's Mess.

Your boyfriend, and everyone within earshot, needs to learn to stand up and speak out when necessary.  Some will say 'easier said than done.'  Possibly true.  However, I've periodically ruffled feathers throughout my career (yes, it's true!), yet my world still turns.  This may garner respect from various individuals, but at the very least people will give a second thought to being stupid around you.

Please move on with your lives.... knowing that this Sgt isn't a one-off; there are actually more stupid people out there and you will cross paths.  Try not to waste too much time on hand-wringing after the fact, especially if you're going to say/do nothing at the time.
 
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