Respect for Women

[infanteerGF]

Sorry, this is going to be a bit of a rant but I want to know if any other women have had this problem.

Yesterday (Remembrance Day) I was the sober driver for my boyfriend. None of the other girlfriends/fiances/wives of his friend group showed up at the mess but I didn't mind because his friends are nice to me and I felt somewhat included. That is until some higher ranked guys came over to give their drunken "life advice" to the privates (my bf being one of them). Most of their talks were random military things I personally don't care much for, but there was also the odd rant about significant others. One sergeant basically went on about how women are replaceable, breakups/divorce are inevitable, etc. and to not let them be the reason for not going on tour if the opportunity arises. He didn't acknowledge my presence and basically made me feel dehumanized. Meanwhile, the boys were just eating this up and laughing. Another guy (forget his rank) was complaining about how his wife would ruin his trip to Amsterdam if he brought her because he wants to go see the Red Light District (which he mentioned he'd already seen).

I guess what I'm asking is have any other women been treated this way? Like an expendable accessory for these men to have next to them and that's it.

I've sort of talked with my bf, and he assures me he doesn't feel this way, but he didn't defend me last night either. I'm worried that the opinions and "advice" of the higher ranks will get to him. We've talked about the possibly of getting married, but I'm kind of worried about our future now.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

  We've talked about the possibly of getting married, but I'm kind of worried about our future now.

As you should be,.....because if I were him and my GF was that thin-skinned, and had so little belief in me, that the idle chat of some drinkers caused this kind of turmoil, I'd be ditching her.

 

[Remius]

The fact that he is willing to include you on some of his social event should be a good indication of his character.  If your worried about your future because of what some other guys are saying then maybe some introspection is in order.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've sort of talked with my bf, and he assures me he doesn't feel this way, but he didn't defend me last night either.

If he didn't defend you with you present just imagine what he says about you when you're not present.

Make a public facebook post talking about how wimpy he looked compared to the other soldiers at remembrance day and see how he feel's about it.

 

[McG]

It sounds like the leadershipin that group failed to meet the CDS's expectations toward Operation Honour.

 

[Gunner98]

I have to ask, if he did not acknowledge your presence - you could made your presence known and taken the opportunity to speak up and "humanize" yourself?  You came on hear to "rant", why didn't you speak up there when you had the chance?

 

[Vimy01]

Your boyfriend's leadership must have forgot that they are leaders of both men and women. When they choose to speak indirectly in a condescending way towards women in general - they forge negative images among female troops. That is not good leadership nor is it gentlemen like. I have seen many variations of your story play out in front of my own eyes in front of female troops/spouses.
Unfortunately, the banter you witness in the CF is very prevalent. Some truly subscribe to it, most (i think) do not. Everyone is trying to correct it.

I do understand your concerns. If your boyfriend is a strong man he will stick to his principles even if he is surrounded by duds. Only you can make that evaluation.

My best subordinates and superiors are all individuals who treasure and treat there families and wives well. From my experience, I can really tell a lot about a soldier by the way his kids and wife look at him and act around him.

At the end of the day - there will always be some members who need a good kick in the ass and a reminder to act like gentlemen.

 

[DAA]

I guess what I'm asking is have any other women been treated this way? Like an expendable accessory for these men to have next to them and that's it.

My first thoughts on this were "Why didn't someone of equal or higher rank shut them up?  I sure would have!!!  Then sort of chalked this up to "bravado" and idle mess chit chat during a social occasion which doesn't happen too often.

But after checking the Ops "profile" and seeing "Proud girlfriend of a reserve infantry private " it made total sense why her BF didn't do or say anything.  Hell, if I was in his position, I'd probably just clam up as well then sort it out later on!

Which leads me to believe that the BF was just trying to "fit in" and be "accepted" by the group.  Mind you, this sort of behaviour, whether Reserve or Regular Force is definitely not acceptable, no matter the occasion and infanteerGF should have been treated as a member of the Team and with respect.

That's a mighty fine way to lose personnel from your Unit!!!!!

 

[Scoobs]

So, as a Senior Officer, I'll make some things clear here:

1. It is not the responsibility of the spouse/girlfriend/etc. to "make her presence" known.  It is not the responsibility of a spouse, etc. to "have a thick skin" when she/he is subjected to inappropriate comments.  Times have changed.  That is reality.  Deal with it.

2. It is the responsibility of EVERY Canadian Armed Forces member to behave IAW the direction of the CDS, i.e. Operation Honour.  I might add, that as a gentleman or lady and especially as a Canadian Armed Forces member, every one of you is held to a higher standard (as it should be) and this type of behaviour is unacceptable.  Period.

3. Time and place.  This behaviour is unacceptable, but even more so in the presence of the public.

 

[holieee]

The sad thing this is a common occurrence with any female standing idly by.
Take it from someone who was in the military AND female, amongst a male dominated organization, this happens a lot.
It brings up the "boys will be boys" debacle, on many occurrences during basic, it seems there would be 'blinders' on and certain conversations would ensue, even with a female present. I was that female on many occasions and I would overhear things and say, "REALLY!?". Maybe your boyfriend felt it wasn't his place to say anything, there is a hierarchy in place and speaking one's mind might not be the best idea amongst higher ranks (and they should know better, regardless).
I digress, while it may not be up to code with the CDS's orders and intentions with OP HONOUR, I know that, despite how they came off about how they seemed to view women, they still cared a great deal for and respected me as a female and their sister-in-arms, as well as the other 16 girls on my platoon.

It's common within the military, is what I'm saying, and no way reflects how they feel about the woman standing there. In fact, some men just sound bitter that they were left while they were on deployment or generally have no sense of decorum or respect.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It sounds like the leadershipin that group failed to meet the CDS's expectations toward Operation Honour.

Bullshit!  From a man who treats women like queens, what she described was not any form of harassment.  If buddy doesn't want to take his wife with him to see a hooker then that's what it is......she probably doesn't invite him when she's getting picked up at Sassy's.
If someone thinks losing a spouse is all part of the career then that's all that is also......OP Honour didn't include "witch hunt" in it I'm sure.

 

[McG]

Bullshit! 

I sorry you think that way.  If a Sgt decides to sit down with his guys, without so much as an acknowledgement to wives and girl friends present, and he council those troops that women in their lives are disposable to be tossed aside for career opportunity, then that Sgt is failing as a leader.  If the conversation continues to discuss girlfriends as a drag because they disrupt sex tourism, then the Op Honour line has most certainly been crossed.

From an other perspective, picture yourself as a father whose daughter's new boyfriend is talking this way.  Do you consider him a good chap; someone you hope to hand your daughter to at the alter?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

council

Hardly.....calling his life the way he see's it.  Nothing more nothing less.......

From an other perspective, picture yourself as a father whose daughter's new boyfriend is talking this way.  Do you consider him a good chap; someone you hope to hand your daughter to at the alter?

Nope.......but I sure wouldn't go so far to say he is failing in his job either.

 

[McG]

From an other perspective, picture yourself as a father whose daughter's new boyfriend is talking this way.  Do you consider him a good chap; someone you hope to hand your daughter to at the alter?

Nope.......

So if that shit he did is not good enough for yours, why apologize for it when it is being thrown at any other woman?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Nope.......
So if that shit he did is not good enough for yours, why apologize for it when it is being thrown at any other woman?

You don't always get what you want.........

 

[Vimy01]

Bullshit!  From a man who treats women like queens, what she described was not any form of harassment.  If buddy doesn't want to take his wife with him to see a hooker then that's what it is......she probably doesn't invite him when she's getting picked up at Sassy's.
If someone thinks losing a spouse is all part of the career then that's all that is also......OP Honour didn't include "witch hunt" in it I'm sure.

Perhaps an objective view of your queen like treatment of women might reveal some underlying discrepancies based on your comments. A mess reception after Remembrance Day is hardly akin to going to a strip club. All members conduct should be so far above reproach. However, one would only know that if they had good discretion. Clearly, you and all the parties involved in this situation have poor conversational discretion in front of women - and I'm sure this transfers into many other areas of your lives.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

One sergeant basically went on about how men are replaceable, breakups/divorce are inevitable, etc. and to not let them be the reason for not going on tour if the opportunity arises.

Another girl (forget her rank) was complaining about how he would ruin her trip to Amsterdam if she brought him because she wants to go see the Red Light District (which she mentioned she'd already seen).

OMG!!  I'm so offended by the above statements............seriously, THIS is "dehumanizing"?  Jesus wept......

 

[Vimy01]

OMG!!  I'm so offended by the above statements............seriously, THIS is "dehumanizing"?  Jesus wept......

It's amazing how the story changes when you take it out of  context. Bravo zulu!

 

[OldSolduer]

It sounds like the leadershipin that group failed to meet the CDS's expectations toward Operation Honour.

I'd agree with that.

As a leader giving drunken stupid advice is detrimental....especially relationship advice  :facepalm:

 

[Scoobs]

Bruce,

your time served in the CAF is certainly valued and appreciated.  As well, you are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but times have changed since you were in.  Whether good or bad, that is your choice to comment on, but at the end of the day the direction from the Chief of Defence Staff for serving members shall be followed.

Every serving CAF member,

if you are still unsure if this type of behaviour is acceptable, take another look at my post above.