Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins
- Thread starter The Bread Guy
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I do my smithin' myself; saves a lot of moneys.
Didn't you carry one the mid east?
Didn't you carry one the mid east?
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Glock as a back up, eh? I can hear TDC raging right now in debt free Alberta.
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Since finances will probably push a new pistol purchase to when I become Imperator, a question becomes "what sort of new unconventional technology exists for sidearms?"
We know that telescoped caseless or semi cased ammunition has progressed to the point that plausible service weapons like LSAT, a rifle derived from the LSAT and the HK G-11 rifle were developed and in the case of the G-11 even adopted by the armed forces (for a breif moment anyway). Miniature explosive rounds like the 20mm rounds for the XM-25 and the Korean K-11, or explosive Frag-12 gauge shotgun shells for the AA-12 are another evolutionary path that longarms are going, but this seems a bit unlikely for sidearms (Of course, saying "Go ahead, make my day" when holding a 20mm pistol would be pretty convincing....).
So looking down the road, is there some new concept that will change sidearms, or maybe we should be thinkig of something entirely different like PDWs to replace the idea of sidearms?
We know that telescoped caseless or semi cased ammunition has progressed to the point that plausible service weapons like LSAT, a rifle derived from the LSAT and the HK G-11 rifle were developed and in the case of the G-11 even adopted by the armed forces (for a breif moment anyway). Miniature explosive rounds like the 20mm rounds for the XM-25 and the Korean K-11, or explosive Frag-12 gauge shotgun shells for the AA-12 are another evolutionary path that longarms are going, but this seems a bit unlikely for sidearms (Of course, saying "Go ahead, make my day" when holding a 20mm pistol would be pretty convincing....).
So looking down the road, is there some new concept that will change sidearms, or maybe we should be thinkig of something entirely different like PDWs to replace the idea of sidearms?
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I'm fine with PDW's in a useful cartridge -- however the subcal handgun/PDW round from several manufacturers have some significant shortcomings.
The AAC Honeybadger in .300BK may prove to be a good option for troops who don't need a full sized rifle/carbine -- however I still do feel there is a role for a pistol.
The AAC Honeybadger in .300BK may prove to be a good option for troops who don't need a full sized rifle/carbine -- however I still do feel there is a role for a pistol.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Pistols are restrained by the hands that hold them. People struggled with the 10mm. Not much is likely to change in pistols except lighter materials. There is the Boberg pistol that uses a feed mech similar to MG's which gives you a smallish gun with a longer barrel.
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Honeybadger is nice, but seems a bit on the large side for a PDW. Of course the .300 cartridge makes this more of a carabine than a PDW anyway.
Reading about the Boberg pistol was also very interesting, although in its present form it certainly does not have many of the "features" wanted for the replacement pistol program. Perhaps especially odd for long time semi-auto pistol users is the fact the slide does not lock to the rear on the last round due to the way the ammunition feed works. I wonder how clearing stoppages will work aside from holding the slide manually to the rear while trying to shake out the obstruction, or the old favorite of having the slide locked to the rear to prove the weapon safe on a range. Still worth looking into for its innovative design.
Reading about the Boberg pistol was also very interesting, although in its present form it certainly does not have many of the "features" wanted for the replacement pistol program. Perhaps especially odd for long time semi-auto pistol users is the fact the slide does not lock to the rear on the last round due to the way the ammunition feed works. I wonder how clearing stoppages will work aside from holding the slide manually to the rear while trying to shake out the obstruction, or the old favorite of having the slide locked to the rear to prove the weapon safe on a range. Still worth looking into for its innovative design.
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Problem with micro caliber PDW's in the ammo does not have any terminal performance.
Go thru Soft Armor sure - but a 4-6mm ice pick wound track.
The PWD armed soldier still needs to fight a AK armed opponent -- hopefully outfight them which means 300m performance
Go thru Soft Armor sure - but a 4-6mm ice pick wound track.
The PWD armed soldier still needs to fight a AK armed opponent -- hopefully outfight them which means 300m performance
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The claimed performance of the 5.7mm X 28 is that it is supposed to allow engagements up to 200m against armour and have sufficient terminal power to kill or disable an opponent (particularly since the bullet tends to tumble end over end in ballistic gelatin).
Still, bigger is better in most cases, and while I'd certainly take this over a 4.7mm round, something like a .40 or even a 10mm in a pistol or PDW would be more comforting.
Still, bigger is better in most cases, and while I'd certainly take this over a 4.7mm round, something like a .40 or even a 10mm in a pistol or PDW would be more comforting.
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Thucydides said:
I've I could ever fathom how to upload PDF's to my photobucket account I'd list a good review on the 5.7 and 4.6 rds "a great way to ensure mission failure" by LCdr Gary Robert.
I know several folks who used to be issued P90's and their entities have shelved them due to significant failures to stop.
The Hk MP-7 in 4.6 is in the same boat -- but it is small enough to stick under a set of man jammies if your doing low-vis work.
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ObedientiaZelum said:
Actually, I think that adds a lot to the discussion, since we now have a way of delivering the desired effect without having to change ammunition or even magazines. Without full scale development, it is hard to say how it will perform "for real", but if it is easily controllable then I could totally see somthing like this with a reflex sight being perfectly acceptable as a PDW/pistol replacement.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Not much different that the Mini-tavor
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I think the argument for a PDW (in the military context) is that pistols don't really have much utiltiy on the modern battlefield, at least in regular military formations. The only reasons I was ever issued a pistol was to emphasise that I was a person in a command position (which did leave me with an uncomfortable feeling on more than one occasion, as I was clearly a target with little ability to respond). If I was carrying a PDW, then it would be clear that not only I was in a command position, but I had the ability to respond in kind. PDWs can also provide the compact firepower for CQB; naval boarding parties use H&K MP-5's with similar size/weight profiles.
Now for operators, maybe a PDW might not meet the bill for some mission profiles, but then they have the sort of budget that buying something like the H&K USP in .40, 10mm or .45 ACP would not be a problem.
Now for operators, maybe a PDW might not meet the bill for some mission profiles, but then they have the sort of budget that buying something like the H&K USP in .40, 10mm or .45 ACP would not be a problem.
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I've never seen a pistol issued without another weapon for cbt arms folks.
Pistols overseas communicate a bunch of things -- in Afghan and Iraq folks used to get execute with pistols, so pull a pistol and folks think your serious (yeah the pointing a carbine, MG or Grenade Launcher did not make the point).
Confined spaces - this is where the pistol comes into its own - also as a secondary weapon if the primary has a stoppage, and in tube entries (bus, train, a/c etc) you may have two pistols.
Other than the MP-5SD - no one is intentionally carrying a 9mm/.40/.45 long gun anymore, and for most folks the 9".300BK uppers are replacing the SD, as you still have a 300m gun, as opposed to a 100m gun.
Pistols overseas communicate a bunch of things -- in Afghan and Iraq folks used to get execute with pistols, so pull a pistol and folks think your serious (yeah the pointing a carbine, MG or Grenade Launcher did not make the point).
Confined spaces - this is where the pistol comes into its own - also as a secondary weapon if the primary has a stoppage, and in tube entries (bus, train, a/c etc) you may have two pistols.
Other than the MP-5SD - no one is intentionally carrying a 9mm/.40/.45 long gun anymore, and for most folks the 9".300BK uppers are replacing the SD, as you still have a 300m gun, as opposed to a 100m gun.
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